Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
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The reason is that most of the numbers posted here are far from reality. There are so many issues with older airframes it just does not make sense to keep them for most airlines. In fact the smaller airlines that decided to go with new equipment have either done well or turned around such as Spirit and Jet Blue as examples of doing well and a turn around.
You have to deal with noise and slot issues, aging airframe inspections, increased overall maintenance costs before you even talk about fuel.
If you have a jet that is 30 percent more efficient on fuel the overall savings is enormous at 80 dollars a barrel and can easily pay the lease payment and more each month. The problem at Delta is management simply does not want a 100 seat aircraft. Its not coming and there wont be a purchase regardless of what we do with scope. They will mention it and really start to dangle it out there in the 2012 contract but in the end just like every other time the last 20 years the airframes wont show up.
You have to deal with noise and slot issues, aging airframe inspections, increased overall maintenance costs before you even talk about fuel.
If you have a jet that is 30 percent more efficient on fuel the overall savings is enormous at 80 dollars a barrel and can easily pay the lease payment and more each month. The problem at Delta is management simply does not want a 100 seat aircraft. Its not coming and there wont be a purchase regardless of what we do with scope. They will mention it and really start to dangle it out there in the 2012 contract but in the end just like every other time the last 20 years the airframes wont show up.
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FTB:
There is a good article in this month's ATW:
Countering the CSeries
By Aaron Karp and Geoffrey Thomas
Boeing and Airbus are under pressure to offer re-engined narrowbodies to match Bombardier's new jet. Engine makers say they can deliver the savings.
(Air Transport World, April 2010, p.22)
In this article a number of Airline Managers, including Southwest, say the 737 and A320 are not going to be competitive with the C Series and they will have to do something. The article discusses engine swap options.
I'd think a engine swap on an 88 would involve updating a lot of legacy systems. Assuming Boeing has nearly no interest in keeping that airframe flying, there would almost have to be an MRO operation willing to spend tens (maybe hundreds) of millions on development and testing. Given we are about the only carrier committed to keeping Douglas jets flying, I dunno if anyone would take the market risk.
When the C Series comes out, we'll be 3 generations behind with an airplane that costs at least twice as much to operate on a CASM basis.
It is smart for Delta's leadership to wait until the competitive response to the C Series gets more clear, but, I just don't see the JT8 powered jets being economically feasible.
I fear this is why we are getting all warm and fuzzy with a large 737 operator and the US launch customer for the C Series.
There is a good article in this month's ATW:
Countering the CSeries
By Aaron Karp and Geoffrey Thomas
Boeing and Airbus are under pressure to offer re-engined narrowbodies to match Bombardier's new jet. Engine makers say they can deliver the savings.
(Air Transport World, April 2010, p.22)
In this article a number of Airline Managers, including Southwest, say the 737 and A320 are not going to be competitive with the C Series and they will have to do something. The article discusses engine swap options.
I'd think a engine swap on an 88 would involve updating a lot of legacy systems. Assuming Boeing has nearly no interest in keeping that airframe flying, there would almost have to be an MRO operation willing to spend tens (maybe hundreds) of millions on development and testing. Given we are about the only carrier committed to keeping Douglas jets flying, I dunno if anyone would take the market risk.
When the C Series comes out, we'll be 3 generations behind with an airplane that costs at least twice as much to operate on a CASM basis.
It is smart for Delta's leadership to wait until the competitive response to the C Series gets more clear, but, I just don't see the JT8 powered jets being economically feasible.
I fear this is why we are getting all warm and fuzzy with a large 737 operator and the US launch customer for the C Series.
As to the 88, I think if you could totally remove and replace the engines on the 80 then it'd been done by now by AMR. Just looking at the mods the 90 got over the 88 shows how prohibitive it would be.
That said, I'm curious as to how well that TR mod I linked that AMR is looking at will work. Because the MD88 sits at about 19 years old with 70% of them under 35,000 cycles on a plane that has a 110,000 cycle limit. We're flying the 9 to 40 years old, so that could leave the 88 with 20 more years in the fleet.
Sailing is right with maintenance costs increasing as aircraft age and I don't have the numbers for our fleet. But as I remember looking at the Embraer Legacy I managed (including managing maintenance
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All that to say, the point is the 9 kept going until 40 years. I think the 88s buys you time and money like the 9.
Sailing, the thing is AirTran started with the 9 until it could buy the 717. Spirit went from the 80 to the Airbuses, Midwest 9s and 80s to 717s, Jetblue was unique in its startup. When the time and opportunity is right I'm sure they'll buy new narrowbodys because like TOGA said you need some good lead-in time with new planes especially. But as reported tonight that won't be in the coming 18 months.
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the ezopenboard charts are very interesting. Also they have in there the number of retirements monthly with Category and age included. Looks like the majority of those that are punching out are doing so at 60.
on a side note, I saw that we had a couple 70+ year olds retire in January off the panel
on a side note, I saw that we had a couple 70+ year olds retire in January off the panel
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FTB:
There is a good article in this month's ATW:
Countering the CSeries
By Aaron Karp and Geoffrey Thomas
Boeing and Airbus are under pressure to offer re-engined narrowbodies to match Bombardier's new jet. Engine makers say they can deliver the savings.
(Air Transport World, April 2010, p.22)
In this article a number of Airline Managers, including Southwest, say the 737 and A320 are not going to be competitive with the C Series and they will have to do something. The article discusses engine swap options.
I'd think a engine swap on an 88 would involve updating a lot of legacy systems. Assuming Boeing has nearly no interest in keeping that airframe flying, there would almost have to be an MRO operation willing to spend tens (maybe hundreds) of millions on development and testing. Given we are about the only carrier committed to keeping Douglas jets flying, I dunno if anyone would take the market risk.
When the C Series comes out, we'll be 3 generations behind with an airplane that costs at least twice as much to operate on a CASM basis.
It is smart for Delta's leadership to wait until the competitive response to the C Series gets more clear, but, I just don't see the JT8 powered jets being economically feasible.
I fear this is why we are getting all warm and fuzzy with a large 737 operator and the US launch customer for the C Series.
There is a good article in this month's ATW:
Countering the CSeries
By Aaron Karp and Geoffrey Thomas
Boeing and Airbus are under pressure to offer re-engined narrowbodies to match Bombardier's new jet. Engine makers say they can deliver the savings.
(Air Transport World, April 2010, p.22)
In this article a number of Airline Managers, including Southwest, say the 737 and A320 are not going to be competitive with the C Series and they will have to do something. The article discusses engine swap options.
I'd think a engine swap on an 88 would involve updating a lot of legacy systems. Assuming Boeing has nearly no interest in keeping that airframe flying, there would almost have to be an MRO operation willing to spend tens (maybe hundreds) of millions on development and testing. Given we are about the only carrier committed to keeping Douglas jets flying, I dunno if anyone would take the market risk.
When the C Series comes out, we'll be 3 generations behind with an airplane that costs at least twice as much to operate on a CASM basis.
It is smart for Delta's leadership to wait until the competitive response to the C Series gets more clear, but, I just don't see the JT8 powered jets being economically feasible.
I fear this is why we are getting all warm and fuzzy with a large 737 operator and the US launch customer for the C Series.
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Friends:
What I suspect it boils down to is Delta is not going to commit to a narrow body jet until it gets its 70-90-100 seat flying figured out. That means determining what it is going to do with tens of billions in fee for departure contracts.
The easy answer is to come up with more outsourcing to entice these operators into making the changes Delta wants.
Hence the reason Sailing says management simply does not want to operate a 100 to 130 seat jet right now. If management isn't convinced we are going to hold firm on scope, then they are smart to bide their time until uncertainties in the airframe and labor market are figured out.
Hence the reason I would like ALPA to clear this up for management with a firm commitment to its members
NO MORE OUTSOURCING!
What I suspect it boils down to is Delta is not going to commit to a narrow body jet until it gets its 70-90-100 seat flying figured out. That means determining what it is going to do with tens of billions in fee for departure contracts.
The easy answer is to come up with more outsourcing to entice these operators into making the changes Delta wants.
Hence the reason Sailing says management simply does not want to operate a 100 to 130 seat jet right now. If management isn't convinced we are going to hold firm on scope, then they are smart to bide their time until uncertainties in the airframe and labor market are figured out.
Hence the reason I would like ALPA to clear this up for management with a firm commitment to its members
NO MORE OUTSOURCING!
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-12-2010 at 10:07 PM.
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Imagine an isle wide enough to roll your wheels and chart case from the aft galley, through coach and first, into the cockpit and behind your seat without brushing anything along the way. Imagine being able to load up 2 XCMs and thinking to yourself, "At least there will be some interesting conversation on this leg." I have always enjoyed the 320, always enjoyed being able to stack bags to the ceiling and get two well deserving guys to or from work in relative comfort (better than a middle coach seat). Aside from the 777, 747 and A330, I haven't seen anything else worth mentioning. Except that AA has a two jumpseat clause in their contract, even the 737.
Better yet - imagine you are in an aisle seat and the FA's can walk by without smashing their buttocks into your shoulder..........17 times on a 3.5 hr flight.
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Scoop
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Just to lighten things up a little, have you guys checked out the seniority crystal ball at the new ezopenboard.com site?
It projects when you can hold an aircraft and when you move through the markers of that list. (Bottom, 90%, 75%, 50%, 25%, and most senior.)
All this in a cool, color-coded graph form.
Of course, it's all BS. Who knows what will happen. It's just cool and something different than North v. South. It's all about you, if you can remain healthy and out of trouble.![Big Grin](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
It projects when you can hold an aircraft and when you move through the markers of that list. (Bottom, 90%, 75%, 50%, 25%, and most senior.)
All this in a cool, color-coded graph form.
Of course, it's all BS. Who knows what will happen. It's just cool and something different than North v. South. It's all about you, if you can remain healthy and out of trouble.
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That's member only with a subscription, isn't it?
It used to be NWA (DALN) only, didn't it?
Do you find it worth the cost?
thanks,
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So, let it be written. So, let it be done.
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What would take you 20 minutes in the old NWA system, you could do in 1 or 2 in ezopenboard.
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