Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-12-2010, 07:49 AM
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Dragon/Sink........great posts!
The ER fleet FINALLY got smart. Guess some of our LCAs (new term for us, so you see where this is headed) actually went out and flew with some of your LCAs and our guys put out a GREAT roseta stone memo. It's in the 757 fleet section, in the middle of the page, and is a great document for both north and south and any fleet.
The problem, as this pamphlet points out, is all the phases when when through over the last year or so, were written by north guy who had about as much a clue and the rest of us what was going on. Why we didn't get real south stuff is beyond me......but that is water under the bridge.
I carry this pamphlet with me and tossed ALL the phase crap out. Sort of like having the cliff notes when you were in college. And, for the north guys, it's even step by step by step..........<----"get the picture"/ "yes we do"
Ferd
The ER fleet FINALLY got smart. Guess some of our LCAs (new term for us, so you see where this is headed) actually went out and flew with some of your LCAs and our guys put out a GREAT roseta stone memo. It's in the 757 fleet section, in the middle of the page, and is a great document for both north and south and any fleet.
The problem, as this pamphlet points out, is all the phases when when through over the last year or so, were written by north guy who had about as much a clue and the rest of us what was going on. Why we didn't get real south stuff is beyond me......but that is water under the bridge.
I carry this pamphlet with me and tossed ALL the phase crap out. Sort of like having the cliff notes when you were in college. And, for the north guys, it's even step by step by step..........<----"get the picture"/ "yes we do"
Ferd
Welcome back. Looking forward to receiving a Saipan tour from you someday.
04-12-2010, 07:51 AM
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04-12-2010, 07:55 AM
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Nu,
Let’s assume everything you guys are saying is true - the north guys took a pay cut, DAL South procedures and policies are terrible, The 747 pay-rate is out of whack etc.
If all of this is true then why did the North guys vote for the joint contract is such a high percentage and the south guys vote for the joint contract at a much lower percentage? Obviously something about the contract appealed to the North side and obviously more guys on the South side were not impressed....
Let’s assume everything you guys are saying is true - the north guys took a pay cut, DAL South procedures and policies are terrible, The 747 pay-rate is out of whack etc.
If all of this is true then why did the North guys vote for the joint contract is such a high percentage and the south guys vote for the joint contract at a much lower percentage? Obviously something about the contract appealed to the North side and obviously more guys on the South side were not impressed....
I don't think the quality of the contract had much to do with why most North guys voted for it. As I look back to how things were when we voted for this contract, I remember there was a lot of distrust harbored on both sides. Back then it was more about North vs. South rather than Delta Pilots vs. DAL, and getting the best contract for our group. I bet if you ask, most North guys would tell you that we felt if we didn't vote for the deal, we would have somehow gotten screwed. Ie. Fragmented, stapled, sold down the river, made to wear hats, etc.
Was this an incorrect assumption? Probably. But, emotions rarely foster rational thought.
I think it was 2003 where North guys/gals voted on a post-9/11 contract, where we got raises when everyone else was taking paycuts. Undoubtedly, it was better than our current DAL contract. But, I'd be surprised if it passed by a higher margin than we passed this new DAL contract. (Does anyone remember the split on the vote?) I know our negotiating chairman (BD) took hell for even bringing it to us. (We should have given him hell years later.)
The fact that we screamed bloody murder for $190 per hour DC-9 Captain rates in 2003, and went out with a whimper about $150 DC-9 Captain rates and 70 hour reserve guarantee in 2008 tells me that in 2008, for us, it's wasn't about the contract.
Because of this, I think its a stretch to connect our view of the the quality of the contract to the acceptance rate of the North guys. Most of us probably just read the bullet points and said, "Great. Now how do I keep the South guys from screwing us."
I'm sorry that it came down to that back then. Cooler heads did not prevail. But, "you guys" are "we" now and I hope we can do a better job in training our sights for the next contract.
New K Now
Last edited by newKnow; 04-12-2010 at 08:10 AM.
04-12-2010, 07:56 AM
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Just seeing if I can figure the avatar thing out. Does this picture make me look fat?
04-12-2010, 07:57 AM
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04-12-2010, 08:01 AM
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04-12-2010, 08:04 AM
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Reserve guys get paid for every day of the month prorated for 30/31 days. So whether they fly a trip or not, they still get paid the reserve guarantee, whereas the line holder gets paid only for trips flown. So if a reserve guy flew the same trips as a line holder side by side for the entire month, and received the same amount for the trip, the reserve guy's pay would be incredibly much higher for not doing anything else at all. Someone with a super computer determined what the average days worked by reserve guys were and then computed an equivalent pay for actually trips flown, to balance out the off days which are paid as well. That's how it works and that's why it's like that.
That's not quite the way I remember it. Your description above sounds like how composite lines worked. Reserves used to get 1/30th or 1/31st of the 70 hr guarantee per day. Not so now. I think it is now divided over 1/18th, the amount of actual on call days in a month.
If a reserve flys a trip, that trip credit goes against the reserve guarantee and so he/she would not get any more than the regular guy until that 70 hr min is met. In a composite, like we used to have, things would be different depending on the type of line the trip was flown on.
Denny
04-12-2010, 08:07 AM
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04-12-2010, 08:11 AM
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04-12-2010, 08:14 AM
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Scoop,
I don't think the quality of the contract had much to do with why most North guys voted for it. As I look back to how things were when we voted for this contract, I remember there was a lot of distrust harbored on both sides. Back then it was more about North vs. South rather than Delta Pilots vs. DAL, and getting the best contract for our group. I bet if you ask, most North guys would tell you that we felt if we didn't vote for the deal, we would have somehow gotten screwed. Ie. Fragmented, stapled, sold down the river, made to wear hats, etc.
Was this an incorrect assumption? Probably. But, emotions rarely foster rational thought.
I think it was 2003 where North guys/gals voted on a post-9/11 contract, where we got raises when everyone else was taking paycuts. Undoubtedly, it was better than our current DAL contract. But, I'd be surprised if it passed by a higher margin than we passed this new DAL contract. (Does anyone remember the split on the vote?) I know our negotiating chairman (BD) took hell for even bringing it to us. (We should have given him hell years later.)
The fact that we screamed bloody murder for $190 per hour DC-9 Captain rates in 2003, and went out with a whimper about $150 DC-9 Captain rates and 70 hour reserve guarantee in 2008 tells me that in 2008, for us, it's wasn't about the contract.
Because of this, I think its a stretch to connect our view of the the quality of the contract to the acceptance rate of the North guys. Most of us probably just read the bullet points and said, "Great. Now how do I keep the South guys from screwing us."
I'm sorry that it came down to that back then. Cooler heads did not prevail. But, "you guys" are "we" now and I hope we can do a better job in training our sights for the next contract.
New K Now
I don't think the quality of the contract had much to do with why most North guys voted for it. As I look back to how things were when we voted for this contract, I remember there was a lot of distrust harbored on both sides. Back then it was more about North vs. South rather than Delta Pilots vs. DAL, and getting the best contract for our group. I bet if you ask, most North guys would tell you that we felt if we didn't vote for the deal, we would have somehow gotten screwed. Ie. Fragmented, stapled, sold down the river, made to wear hats, etc.
Was this an incorrect assumption? Probably. But, emotions rarely foster rational thought.
I think it was 2003 where North guys/gals voted on a post-9/11 contract, where we got raises when everyone else was taking paycuts. Undoubtedly, it was better than our current DAL contract. But, I'd be surprised if it passed by a higher margin than we passed this new DAL contract. (Does anyone remember the split on the vote?) I know our negotiating chairman (BD) took hell for even bringing it to us. (We should have given him hell years later.)
The fact that we screamed bloody murder for $190 per hour DC-9 Captain rates in 2003, and went out with a whimper about $150 DC-9 Captain rates and 70 hour reserve guarantee in 2008 tells me that in 2008, for us, it's wasn't about the contract.
Because of this, I think its a stretch to connect our view of the the quality of the contract to the acceptance rate of the North guys. Most of us probably just read the bullet points and said, "Great. Now how do I keep the South guys from screwing us."
I'm sorry that it came down to that back then. Cooler heads did not prevail. But, "you guys" are "we" now and I hope we can do a better job in training our sights for the next contract.
New K Now
New,
Makes sense to me. The important thing for all of us to remember is that we are still combining two operations - it is a work in progress. Hopefully the long term gains for all of us will outweigh the short term pain, which I admit appears to be far greater on the North side.
Scoop
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