Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-12-2010, 04:38 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It sure would simplify bidding decisions. It would enable people to bid QOL and desires without regards to pay rate decisions. It would enable senior guys to make coin by staying home and doing turns while the younger guys can fly the all nighter to Manchester.
76 seater the same as a whale? Maybe a bit of a stretch. How about a WB A/B rate and a NB A/B rate?
76 seater the same as a whale? Maybe a bit of a stretch. How about a WB A/B rate and a NB A/B rate?
The problem is where is the cut, WB pay now starts at a 757, at CAL it is WB,LN,SN.
LN is the 757 and the big 73N's. WB starts at a 767-200. There will be winners and losers in this idea as well.
Just sayin....
04-12-2010, 04:42 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Hey Homies;
I have taken a 2-3 week vacation from forums and prefer not to read 1000 pages to catch up.
Whats the latest in the rumor mill?
Ferd,glad to see you back.
Scambo
I have taken a 2-3 week vacation from forums and prefer not to read 1000 pages to catch up.
Whats the latest in the rumor mill?
Ferd,glad to see you back.
Scambo
04-12-2010, 04:49 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I think it would be very difficult to have our pay based on something other than aircraft type. It is engrained in the way we have been living our careers from day 1. To change now would cause a huge shift in positions and huge training cost. It is easy for those of you that are new here to seek a new way to come up with pay, but for those who have lived 20-30 years under the current system, it would be a hard pill to swallow. People have positioned themselves in bases, bought homes, and pretty much have planned their lives around what aircraft can be flown and what it pays. To change that changes almost everything.
I agree that a mistake was made with respect to 747 pay and now we will have to live with it. I'm not sure how the DAL pay rates are calculated, but at brand x we had a formula based on production. Therefore, a 747 pilot was more productive than a 9 pilot due to the size of load in passengers and cargo. Seems DAL is along these lines as well but would like to hear how your or our rates have been determined in the past.
You would have a huge argument on your hands to try and increase the 74 pay because it would be labeled an increase for a small segment of the group whereas had it been done in the beginning it would not have been viewed that way. We had a big kadu over trying to keep 2 capt postions on the plane and alot of junior guys were ticked about that battle long ago. Hopefully we do not have to fight that battle again in the future on the 777, 330, and 747 for trips over 12. That was a win for us from the DAL work rules. There ya go, had something good to say.
I agree that a mistake was made with respect to 747 pay and now we will have to live with it. I'm not sure how the DAL pay rates are calculated, but at brand x we had a formula based on production. Therefore, a 747 pilot was more productive than a 9 pilot due to the size of load in passengers and cargo. Seems DAL is along these lines as well but would like to hear how your or our rates have been determined in the past.
You would have a huge argument on your hands to try and increase the 74 pay because it would be labeled an increase for a small segment of the group whereas had it been done in the beginning it would not have been viewed that way. We had a big kadu over trying to keep 2 capt postions on the plane and alot of junior guys were ticked about that battle long ago. Hopefully we do not have to fight that battle again in the future on the 777, 330, and 747 for trips over 12. That was a win for us from the DAL work rules. There ya go, had something good to say.
My opinion alone:
I beleive that the pay was made the same for two reasons:
1) It was assumed with a decent level of certainly that the 744/777 would be fenced, so paying the same allowed both pre-merger sides to have access to the highest paying jobs
2) There are no 744's on order, and options for a ton of 777. We will be getting more of them. When the 744's do go away, or as they saw it during the talks of the JPWA, making the 744 pay more would in the end allow the highest paying job to retire from the property. At that time it was NLT than 2012.
Just reasons as to why.
04-12-2010, 04:50 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
04-12-2010, 04:55 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
AE within two weeks or so.
More 90's. From where is still not something that is public knowledge.
SEA ER base with 120-130 in each seat. CVG ER pulldown.
There is more, but that is the big stuff.
China Eastern has been quiet on their partner, and that was to be announced NLT March 31. LGA should be announced shortly..
RASM is way up.
Publicly the flight ops leaders are stating no hiring this year, but the actions, as well as a few other things indicate otherwise. Fleet utilization is going way up, and all of the 757's (5500 block to) in MZJ and VCV will be returning.
80 and a few others will have a good dump for public consumption NLT tomorrow night.
04-12-2010, 05:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
As a North guy there is a lot from the South contract I like...... That being said there were a lot of things from the North side I think were better as well. We should try and improve on what we have not complain about how much better one side is or the other.
Personally I liked the old, old way we did it on the North side. It was 80 hours scheduled max pay per month. You could fly up to 82.5 a month and they would put anything over 80 in your bank. Schedules were built between 68-80 hours and you were automatically paid out of your bank in any month you were below 80 (as long as you had a usable balance). If you were projected over 82.5 you had to drop something......
This created an airline that had to staff for flying rather than staff by enticing pilots to fly for additional cash. This would require higher staffing for all categories which in itself would be a pay raise or higher QOL for all. It also kept guys from hoaring themselves out for pay and then complaining about not having time off.
Just my $.02
Personally I liked the old, old way we did it on the North side. It was 80 hours scheduled max pay per month. You could fly up to 82.5 a month and they would put anything over 80 in your bank. Schedules were built between 68-80 hours and you were automatically paid out of your bank in any month you were below 80 (as long as you had a usable balance). If you were projected over 82.5 you had to drop something......
This created an airline that had to staff for flying rather than staff by enticing pilots to fly for additional cash. This would require higher staffing for all categories which in itself would be a pay raise or higher QOL for all. It also kept guys from hoaring themselves out for pay and then complaining about not having time off.
Just my $.02
04-12-2010, 05:12 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
As a North guy there is a lot from the South contract I like...... That being said there were a lot of things from the North side I think were better as well. We should try and improve on what we have not complain about how much better one side is or the other.
Personally I liked the old, old way we did it on the North side. It was 80 hours scheduled max pay per month. You could fly up to 82.5 a month and they would put anything over 80 in your bank. Schedules were built between 68-80 hours and you were automatically paid out of your bank in any month you were below 80 (as long as you had a usable balance). If you were projected over 82.5 you had to drop something......
This created an airline that had to staff for flying rather than staff by enticing pilots to fly for additional cash. This would require higher staffing for all categories which in itself would be a pay raise or higher QOL for all. It also kept guys from hoaring themselves out for pay and then complaining about not having time off.
Just my $.02
Personally I liked the old, old way we did it on the North side. It was 80 hours scheduled max pay per month. You could fly up to 82.5 a month and they would put anything over 80 in your bank. Schedules were built between 68-80 hours and you were automatically paid out of your bank in any month you were below 80 (as long as you had a usable balance). If you were projected over 82.5 you had to drop something......
This created an airline that had to staff for flying rather than staff by enticing pilots to fly for additional cash. This would require higher staffing for all categories which in itself would be a pay raise or higher QOL for all. It also kept guys from hoaring themselves out for pay and then complaining about not having time off.
Just my $.02
DAL did something similar to that with guys on furlough.
I like that system, but the hourly rate needs to be high enough or restored enough for guys to sign on to that! I know I would. I plan on 70 hrs a month and anything above that gets saved.
04-12-2010, 05:38 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
We had that system for many years, whether guys were on furlough or not. As I recall, the cap varied between 75 and 78 hours, and you could draw your bank as low as -20 hours. During a short month, you could, at your option, draw from the bank to fill up.
04-12-2010, 05:43 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
Fleet integration
A few posts back someone inquired about how the fleet integration went yesterday. From the front row (I mean jumpseat), I got to observe the growing pains. I think I now understand some of what the pains for the last two years have really been about. Drum roll please – we don’t speak the same language and no one has been brought in to interpret!
I was on my way home out of LGA yesterday and the jumpseat on the bus was the only game in town. Everything was jammed and the non-rev list to ATL was like 60+ strong. Love the bus jumpseat, but while introducing myself to the CA and FO and asking for a ride it came out that I was a DAL-S guy. To which the CA said” Great! Can you help us with these new forms?”
While this was going on, two more bus CAs came up and started asking questions and before you know it we were holding ‘class’ (using the term very loosely based on my very junior status). The CAs told the agents we would probably be late and her response was everything on the PMNWA aircraft had run late and even the venerable DC9 had gone out 45 late.
Anyway, got to the cockpit and the FO has reams of paperwork on her lap telling her how to dumb down the bus to the WDR info. There was only one release and I had to point out the FOs best friend block and the plethora of information therein. So much of their automation had been disabled, they were feeling totally uncomfortable. We went over the AWABs, discussed the preface and the corrections contained therein and then the real kicker – for our departure it was calling for a flex (derate) and flaps 3 with packs on. According to the very senior captain, they never take off flaps 3 with the packs on and therefore can’t use a derate. Long call to the special help line ensues and after finally getting an airbus guy we do what it asks for. We push only 30 minutes late and I was getting asked questions the whole time.
They had tons of stuff to read through but what the CA said really rang true. He called this “training by MEMO”. I couldn’t agree more. What we did here should not be tolerated at any level; let alone the world’s Greatest Air Line.
The lessons in the book /pamphlet were great but until you have an opportunity to put in real numbers they don’t mean much and when it uses terms you don’t understand who do you ask? The help line was OK but would it have hurt to have a couple of us lowly reserve pilots fly around the system to help out for the day? All it took was a little bit of listening and then translating one to another. We on the south side seem much less regimented, but our friends to the north explained that they have gotten incredibly regimented over the years. So what makes sense to us doesn’t to them and we need to help as much as possible!!!
I learned a ton about the Northern guys/gals and have immense respect for what they have had to endure. I’m tired of the constant battle about who got hosed more in the merger. It’s over, get on with it and make sure we’re compensated next contract. Let’s face it, without us, the merger wouldn’t have happened.
I was on my way home out of LGA yesterday and the jumpseat on the bus was the only game in town. Everything was jammed and the non-rev list to ATL was like 60+ strong. Love the bus jumpseat, but while introducing myself to the CA and FO and asking for a ride it came out that I was a DAL-S guy. To which the CA said” Great! Can you help us with these new forms?”
While this was going on, two more bus CAs came up and started asking questions and before you know it we were holding ‘class’ (using the term very loosely based on my very junior status). The CAs told the agents we would probably be late and her response was everything on the PMNWA aircraft had run late and even the venerable DC9 had gone out 45 late.
Anyway, got to the cockpit and the FO has reams of paperwork on her lap telling her how to dumb down the bus to the WDR info. There was only one release and I had to point out the FOs best friend block and the plethora of information therein. So much of their automation had been disabled, they were feeling totally uncomfortable. We went over the AWABs, discussed the preface and the corrections contained therein and then the real kicker – for our departure it was calling for a flex (derate) and flaps 3 with packs on. According to the very senior captain, they never take off flaps 3 with the packs on and therefore can’t use a derate. Long call to the special help line ensues and after finally getting an airbus guy we do what it asks for. We push only 30 minutes late and I was getting asked questions the whole time.
They had tons of stuff to read through but what the CA said really rang true. He called this “training by MEMO”. I couldn’t agree more. What we did here should not be tolerated at any level; let alone the world’s Greatest Air Line.
The lessons in the book /pamphlet were great but until you have an opportunity to put in real numbers they don’t mean much and when it uses terms you don’t understand who do you ask? The help line was OK but would it have hurt to have a couple of us lowly reserve pilots fly around the system to help out for the day? All it took was a little bit of listening and then translating one to another. We on the south side seem much less regimented, but our friends to the north explained that they have gotten incredibly regimented over the years. So what makes sense to us doesn’t to them and we need to help as much as possible!!!
I learned a ton about the Northern guys/gals and have immense respect for what they have had to endure. I’m tired of the constant battle about who got hosed more in the merger. It’s over, get on with it and make sure we’re compensated next contract. Let’s face it, without us, the merger wouldn’t have happened.
04-12-2010, 05:43 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
I can get behind this idea as a compromise, and I think it has a lot of merit.
I do disagree with the premise of "generating revenue". We don't generate revenue. Like it or not, we operate machinery. IMHO, Glen Hauenstein and Neel Shah generate the revenue for a given flight.
We do however, control costs to some extent, but that isn't the same as generating revenue.
I do disagree with the premise of "generating revenue". We don't generate revenue. Like it or not, we operate machinery. IMHO, Glen Hauenstein and Neel Shah generate the revenue for a given flight.
We do however, control costs to some extent, but that isn't the same as generating revenue.
Last edited by acl65pilot; 04-12-2010 at 07:21 AM. Reason: Edit to remain within TOS
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