Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
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Hummmmm,
No dog in this fight, as an old guy from another profession............
But, using your logic, are you in favor of just capt pay and fo pay regardless of airplane size and range? What if we actually capture the 76 seat flying? Does that captain make the same as a 777/Whale capt?
Can of worms open you young jedi![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Ferd
No dog in this fight, as an old guy from another profession............
But, using your logic, are you in favor of just capt pay and fo pay regardless of airplane size and range? What if we actually capture the 76 seat flying? Does that captain make the same as a 777/Whale capt?
Can of worms open you young jedi
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Ferd
I am inclined to go with a broader category setup like F16dude mentioned (ala FDX).
Just remember, it doesn't cost the company anything in extra in pay if you make E170 captains the highest paid and the 777 pilots lowest paid. As long as the block/credit hours flown are the same as the 777 pilots, you can set up the rates any way you like and the cost to the company is the same. Food for thought, and that food might be a CAN OF WORMS!!!
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Thanks Slow, I was hoping you would bring that explaination out, because there are drawbacks like I mentioned.
Good night! I'll be here all this week and next.....Although I have posted WAY more than my normal amount, so I may go back to lurking for a while......
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Another thing to remember is that some of the things our DALN brethren are frustrated with at DAL are the same things DALS people have been frustrated for years. Also remember, "Adopt and Go" was the ticket to the quickest and smoothest merger in history. While there may be things that were better at NWA I believe that if it was anyone "close" as far as a particular procedure or system the "default" was to go with the DALS method and that means that DALN had to absorb most of the procedural changes - whether they were better or not, change is always challenging. I really believe we need to just work with what we've got (PWA, procedures, PBS, technology, etc) and come up with ways to work within the system to make it better, not this constant N/S "my way was better" or " I got screwed" , etc.
Some of the other issues that the DAL N find annoying:
1) First, there are the economic issues. True there was a rate raise, but in so many other QoL areas, there has been a loss. Loss of SLI instructors, loss of the sick pay, and loss of a predictable OT system (since most NWA guys commute, the GS system is NOT readily available.)
2) There are a lot of non-economic issues that provide a constant irritation. I had a long drawn out example, but in the interest of brevity, I will only say that whole crew scheduling system operates a notch below to what most DAL N guys were used to as far as "solving problems with one or zero phone calls".
3) The constant bombardment with "gotchas". Just one example just popped up on the webboard. Positive space to training at NWA included to/from home to your OE trip. Ooops, now it doesn't. Seems like every time we turn around, there is something someone forgot to tell us, and that acts as a constant reminder of what "was" good in the NWA PWA and really makes us wonder what other boot is going to drop in the future.
All this stuff had the suspicion meter in the yellow. THEN you throw in the KW/Council 54/MOU 7/Grievance issues, and well, you can see where the angst comes from.
Fortunately, I think the reps have done an outstanding job of communicating these issues, and I think the proper corrections are being made. But thinking that the way things worked for the last 50 years will continue to work, is being a bit naive.
Nu
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So with your system in place, the regional turbo prop guys should probably be making the big bucks because they probably work a lot harder than we do, and the 747 guys should be at the bottom of the pay scale because their job is pretty cushy. Interesting theory my friend. You may be all alone on that idea. Just a hunch. I actually understand your theory, but it will never fly, and you will at some point be glad that it doesn't. P.S. I'm still buying. Ha
I know that will never fly, anything taken to an extreme won't work.
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Does anyone have the 73N walkaround slides? I'm in a place with a lousy internet connection, and doing them online through DeltaNet is painful. If someone would be kind enough to e-mail 'em to me, I can download them at an internet cafe with a decent connection and study them here in my BOQ room at my leisure.
Thanks. Please PM me for my e-mail address if you have them.
Thanks. Please PM me for my e-mail address if you have them.
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I am hoping I never earn a "battle star", but I respect those who have.
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No, not selfish.....I guess you didn't catch the satire in that post.
I just can't see how "weight, range and speed" mean anything to the workload of a 777 crew from ATL-MCO, or the M88 crew that does the same route late that day.(Thank god DAL isn't wasting a 777 doing that anymore!)
I think, in my personal opinion, that one should be paid for the difficulty and/or complexity of the the work performed. (that explains my night/intl. override suggestions).
"Old geezers" shouldn't get more because they fly bigger metal, (IMHO) they should get a "catch up" for retirement lost. (You'll never recoup the majority of it, but the young guys will never even get a taste of that golden age either, its not likely coming back)I believe your catch up shouldn't hinge on what airframe you sit in for 60-80 hours per month.
Bid the flying you WANT to do, and get paid more for working at challenging and fatiguing body-clock hours or dealing with ocean crossings/difficult divert scenarios. (i.e. paid for working harder)
Don't be financially FORCED to bid something based on whether the landing gear has trucks or not.
A pay system in this scenario has drawbacks, namely QOL increases are slower for junior guys (i.e. ME), because guys stop chasing payrates to make the money and would bid what they truly want (likely leaving junior guys the 738 and 75/76 red eye flying, along with ACC, DKR, and KWI, 9 day ER trips away from family and other rather undesirable flying in other categories.
Its a give and take no matter how you slice it, but I really think a common payscale and "incentives" for night and international legs makes sense. (Having a bonus for holidays(holiday pay) has some great QOL implications too, but that's yet another discussion).
I just can't see how "weight, range and speed" mean anything to the workload of a 777 crew from ATL-MCO, or the M88 crew that does the same route late that day.(Thank god DAL isn't wasting a 777 doing that anymore!)
I think, in my personal opinion, that one should be paid for the difficulty and/or complexity of the the work performed. (that explains my night/intl. override suggestions).
"Old geezers" shouldn't get more because they fly bigger metal, (IMHO) they should get a "catch up" for retirement lost. (You'll never recoup the majority of it, but the young guys will never even get a taste of that golden age either, its not likely coming back)I believe your catch up shouldn't hinge on what airframe you sit in for 60-80 hours per month.
Bid the flying you WANT to do, and get paid more for working at challenging and fatiguing body-clock hours or dealing with ocean crossings/difficult divert scenarios. (i.e. paid for working harder)
Don't be financially FORCED to bid something based on whether the landing gear has trucks or not.
A pay system in this scenario has drawbacks, namely QOL increases are slower for junior guys (i.e. ME), because guys stop chasing payrates to make the money and would bid what they truly want (likely leaving junior guys the 738 and 75/76 red eye flying, along with ACC, DKR, and KWI, 9 day ER trips away from family and other rather undesirable flying in other categories.
Its a give and take no matter how you slice it, but I really think a common payscale and "incentives" for night and international legs makes sense. (Having a bonus for holidays(holiday pay) has some great QOL implications too, but that's yet another discussion).
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Hmm.... I always forget that the most DAL N guys never got to vote on this CBA, and the ones that did barely voted in favor! ![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
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Out of 6231 eligible Delta pilots, 5120, or 82.17 percent cast their vote. Of those, 3161, or 61.74 percent voted "In Favor" of the agreement. Out of 4371 eligible Northwest pilots, 3535, or 80.87 percent cast their vote. Of those, 3067, or 86.76 percent voted "In Favor" of the agreement.
Let us just move on and focus on fixing the future in unity.
Let us just move on and focus on fixing the future in unity.
Last edited by BigGuns; 04-12-2010 at 09:57 AM.
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Hmm.... I always forget that the most DAL N guys never got to vot on this CBA, and the ones that did barely voted in favor! ![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Out of 6231 eligible Delta pilots, 5120, or 82.17 percent cast their vote. Of those, 3161, or 61.74 percent voted "In Favor" of the agreement. Out of 4371 eligible Northwest pilots, 3535, or 80.87 percent cast their vote. Of those, 3067, or 86.76 percent voted "In Favor" of the agreement.
Let us just move on and focus on fixing the future in unity.
Let us just move on and focus on fixing the future in unity.
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Personally, I'd be for the 73/small bus being on the same rate. Heck, throw the 90 and the 88 on there too.
The 744 absolutely should have a different pay rate as well... it hold's so much more than any of the other airplane, it is certainly in a category of its own.
The 9 in general is smaller than the others, that's logical as well to be a separate category. It also helps make a stronger economical argument to get a 100 seater on our list vice the arguments mgmt would make if we had that size aircraft grouped in with the 160 seaters.
Not a fan at all of single CA and FO pay lists.... not one bit. There are many reasons, and another was added tonight: scope recapture.
I know Mr. Itsnotcomingback wrote in the C44 Roar a few months ago that it's not going to happen, and I am very glad he's not sitting at the negotiating table for us. Yahoos with views like his don't need to be representing us.
Nu- why must you start up the same crap every couple evenings? Just when things have chilled out, you've got to go on another DAL-S sucks rant. Of course, now alfa is going to come back and tick every body else off with his response to yours.
It's a different operation and you're learning it now like a newhire- in fact got much better help than we had in newhire in many ways. There are going to be gotchas! Have beer and chill out.
The 744 absolutely should have a different pay rate as well... it hold's so much more than any of the other airplane, it is certainly in a category of its own.
The 9 in general is smaller than the others, that's logical as well to be a separate category. It also helps make a stronger economical argument to get a 100 seater on our list vice the arguments mgmt would make if we had that size aircraft grouped in with the 160 seaters.
Not a fan at all of single CA and FO pay lists.... not one bit. There are many reasons, and another was added tonight: scope recapture.
I know Mr. Itsnotcomingback wrote in the C44 Roar a few months ago that it's not going to happen, and I am very glad he's not sitting at the negotiating table for us. Yahoos with views like his don't need to be representing us.
Nu- why must you start up the same crap every couple evenings? Just when things have chilled out, you've got to go on another DAL-S sucks rant. Of course, now alfa is going to come back and tick every body else off with his response to yours.
It's a different operation and you're learning it now like a newhire- in fact got much better help than we had in newhire in many ways. There are going to be gotchas! Have beer and chill out.
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And I don't want you to have a battle star, cuz I don't want another one! In the big skeem of things, it wasn't that long between our strike (actually it was a lockout....we were still at the table when "they" walked out!) and 9/11. I'll bet'ch Mr Anderson wished he had all that cash that Mr Dasburg and Mr Wilson threw away "showing us who's boss" on 9/12.
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But, that doesn't mean I wouldn't do it again if necessary.........walking a picket line with that zombie look on your face is about as much fun as you can have with your pants on
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Ferd
Last edited by Ferd149; 04-11-2010 at 08:10 PM.
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