Originally Posted by keenster

Waves,
It is hard for you to realize the losses of the N side because you have not experienced any of the losses that we did with our contract going away. Some things are QOL items that are difficult to put a dollar value on. Did we get a pay raise?? Yes, if you look only at hourly rates. That is very simple. But lets look at W-2s

2008 w-2 :$134,741.06 days worked 99 total 1361$/day
2009 w-2 :$133,934.12 days worked 134 total 1000$/day
2010 w-2 :$140,125.00 days worked 132 total 1061$/day base on avg
for 01/02
So on w-2s alone I made less in 09(DALrates) than in 08(NWA rates) with the huge huge huge pay raise that I got. In the SLI postings we were told time and time again about our huge pay raises that we were getting(go check them out on the old merger page). I said that the numbers did not show that and was told I was totally wrong. And how about that $PER DAY FIGURE
That equates to huge quality of life losses. Lost 2000 hours of sick pay: approx $270,000.00 for me. I was planning on bailing out early but lost medical coverage for early goers so I gotta stick around now. And I can keep going on things that were lost. I am grateful for the raises in pay that were achieved, but had you not got them where would we have been??? Pretty much they just kept us even with where we were. I hope this puts this issue to bed and I for one am sick and tired of it. The above numbers are facts and I got paperwork to back them up. I flew the same time pretty much every month approx 76-77 hours on average. So while it is so easy for you to make your statements where are your facts? So when you tell me that I got a huge pay raise, and I look at the above numbers, it kinda really ticks me off. If that's your goal keep it up you are doing a fine job.

And for the really big one, I would have finished up as capt on the 330 with the last couple years on the 747. It will take a small miracle for me just to get on the 330 after SLI, and I sure did not want to do it on reserve. The only hope is that we grow and expand??????

So, there is a perspective from a N-guy. Most of us are not really happy about this merger. Has nothing to do with N vs S guys on a personal level. I tell my self "that's life" and try to get on with things and hope for the best. I can't speak for the rest of the guys on their w-2s those are just mine. It seems as though you think this merger was a bed of roses for us, but for us there are lots of thorns in that bed. Maybe now you understand us a little more.

P.S. THis post is to be considered informative only and is not meant to further this argument. I would like to put this dog(huge pay raise) to bed and let it lie. You never wake an old dog asleep on the porch. I am done with it.

Originally Posted by tsquare

OK.. maybe I was a bit harsh. but whenever I hear.. see..the term windfall from a senior guy when it relates to more junior guys getting some sort of improvements in "pay" it gets under my saddle blanket. And one thing I was afraid of in this argument came to fruition. I have ALWAYS complained about the current reserve system, even when I was a line holder. It sucked then.. and it sucks still. It just happens to be a bit more personal now. Reserve is the only thing we do that ignores seniority... (bring it slowplay and alfa, there's no way you can defend this one.) But a little more from my perspective. I just think it's wrong that a regular line guy can fly a 2 day trip for 10+ hours and a reserve guy cen fly the exact same trip for 5. No way that can be justified.


ahhhh I'll let this go.. the same way I did Kiffin. (I do hope that USC gets the death penalty under his watch though ).

Oh.. and one last thing for you SEC fans to think about. There are now TWO departures in ATL that are named for UT coaches... Summit and Dooley. bwaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaa

GO VOLS

Originally Posted by Scoop

Keenster,

Thanks for helping me see the light - here I was feeling pretty good about this merger, thinking a few years of short term pain (from both sides) and we would then start seeing the benefit of synergies, growth, dogs and cats living together etc. Now Im ****ed that the merger didn't immediately transport me to pilot nirvana.

Like I said, I was actually pretty happy with things relatively speaking (see USAIR). But now after reading your post, the light bulb clicked on and I think that I am being screwed. More former NW guys moved into my category, LAX7ER, on the last bid then DAL south guys so I left to minimize my seniority loss. My career was going gangbusters prior to the merger (not really) and now I’m stuck on a narrow-body.

Seriously though, the merger should be beneficial to us all in the long run - lets give it a chance and see what happens.

As far as finishing up CAPT on a 747 - why yes you might have finished up as a 747 Captain at a stand alone Northwest, or the stand alone NW and Delta both could have been back in BK and maybe UAL/AMR/CAL etc would be cleaning our clocks if they merged and we didn't. Or maybe Doug Parker would have taken a fancy to NW and you would currently be doing a three-way in merger Hell with USAIR and AWA. Comparing the current situation to what "might have been" or even what you think "would have been" is an iffy proposition at best.

The biggest recurring mistake I see Pilots on this forum make is extrapolating out 10, 20, or 30 years into the future - it does not work. Hell, maybe this merger will not work and were all screwed - who knows.

Finally, I will end with a quote from a very wise man:

"Predictions are hard to make - especially about the future." Yogi Berra

So I will continue to plan for the worst but hope for the best regarding this merger.

Scoop

Originally Posted by Waves

T, I know exactly what you are saying about the 2 different rates. I too questioned that for many years. It was actually satisfactorily explained to me one time by someone very knowledgable about the subject. Problem is, I can't remember what the justification was. I will get a screwdriver from my tool box and see if I can pry it out of my rusty memory banks. It is difficult to believe, but I remember saying, "OK, that is actually logical and makes sense." After that I let it go. Right now it sounds a bunch a whookey. To be continued.

Originally Posted by Ferd149

I don't know that they were wrong........I just think figures always lie and lairs always figure. Seriously, I think both sided used figures to paint the picture they wanted. The one I remember was the discussion on the range of the A330. I knew both of us used rereleases (I forget what you guys call it, I'm only half through WWO) but your lawyer talked like he'd never heard of such a thing and there was no way the plane could fly as far as we were using it

I'll freely admit, I just scanned your stuff but read mine more closely just hoping we had landed a punch or two. I was under no delusions as to what was going to happen

Ferd

Originally Posted by Waves

So just so I get credit for another post (I'm trying to catch acl, ha) here's one thing we need to fix. I'll never get to fly it, but the 747 should be a much higher pay rate than the 777. The same rate, are you kidding me? To have those pay rates the same is an insult to that magnificent machine and 8th wonder of the world. Weight, range, and speed, my friends. Even us junior guys should push for that one. It's just not right the way it is.

Being a huge global carrier without a 747 on the property was an embarrassment to the DAL pilots. I for one want to thank the DAL N guys for bringing those to our fleet. I'll never be able to fly it, but at least it is here for the world to see. Now if you could just convince The Man to buy some A380's, we would really be somebody.

Originally Posted by Waves

So just so I get credit for another post (I'm trying to catch acl, ha) here's one thing we need to fix. I'll never get to fly it, but the 747 should be a much higher pay rate than the 777. The same rate, are you kidding me? To have those pay rates the same is an insult to that magnificent machine and 8th wonder of the world. Weight, range, and speed, my friends. Even us junior guys should push for that one. It's just not right the way it is.

Originally Posted by shiznit

I disagree. (and I am pretty darn junior). High payrates on the biggest metal is a great idea when everybody will get to spend the last 3-5 years as a captain on said metal, AND IF YOU HAVE PENSIONS BASED ON FAE....

We have retirements based on % of earnings now. As such, I would MUCH rather see higher payrates SOONER(and end up flatter later) rather than make up for it with trying to top out high late so I can take advantage of compounding and have a better retirement.

It goes back to career earnings, not earnings at the end of the career.