Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-11-2010, 08:22 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Windfall??? Are you kidding me? This post is a CLASSIC case of pulling up the ladder. By YOUR logic, the only ones actually that have any room to complain about reserve are the most junior guys in the company, because anybody else that has bid up should have stayed a DC9 or maddog or whatever newhire FO position they got because then they would be junior and be able to avoid reserve. It's fine if we are in a growth cycle, but in case YOU haven't been paying attention, that has not been the case for a few years, and the likelyhood of that changing anytime soon is remote. This kind of attitude is disgusting. I think I heard you say once "don't worry son, you'll be senior some day" Since you have 30+ years, I will venture to guess you are very very senior, so my advice to anybody that read the above post is to ignore it because it represents few fDAL pilots' attitudes.
I presume you are a reserve 76er capt.,so you want more pay and less positions ? Now who's pulling up the ladder. Roll Tide
P.S. I know from your prior posts that is not what you are saying or want.I bet we want the same thing,Improvements in all areas of the contract(including reserve) and ZERO scope give backs. The 1 point that I was trying but obviously failed to make is: If we have to make choices let the choice be the one that benefits the majority of our pilots, not the top 10% nor the bottom 10%. Peace
04-11-2010, 08:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Waves,
Don't get me started on the arbitration transcripts. I wrote several times on here even prehearings what we could expect. In general, I had been a juror on a case where a movie producer sued Blockbuster. Two weeks of very interesting stuff.......if you like contracts and money trails.
Anyway, what I learned is we sold our souls when we quit trying to come up with a list ourselves and gave it to the lawyers. The lawyers job was to paint the "other side" as greedy bloodsucker and it did just what I predicted. Made each other look like greedy bloodsuckers. I don't think either side challenged much of the others numbers. More like getting their talking points in....sort of like talking heads on the Sunday morning political talk shows.
With that said, you had the much better lawyer. I've flown with several past reps and the old red book merger committee chairman who told me up front we were going to get our butts kicked. Our guy was the same one who had lost in Republic v NWA and USAir v America West. He is abrasive and I liked reading his stuff as much as you did. Your guy could have (and had) help us with anyone.......but you.
Oh well.......like I said water under the bridge. In general, I think each of us liked reading our lawyers "stuff" like you like watching your kids play high school football. You are going to cheer for your kid.
We took IMHO a bad stance with DOH. USAir had just gotten their butt handed to them using that argument, but we had no choice. But that is a 2 hour beer discussion on red/green/blue food fights that is way above my ability to type.
Ferd
Don't get me started on the arbitration transcripts. I wrote several times on here even prehearings what we could expect. In general, I had been a juror on a case where a movie producer sued Blockbuster. Two weeks of very interesting stuff.......if you like contracts and money trails.
Anyway, what I learned is we sold our souls when we quit trying to come up with a list ourselves and gave it to the lawyers. The lawyers job was to paint the "other side" as greedy bloodsucker and it did just what I predicted. Made each other look like greedy bloodsuckers. I don't think either side challenged much of the others numbers. More like getting their talking points in....sort of like talking heads on the Sunday morning political talk shows.
With that said, you had the much better lawyer. I've flown with several past reps and the old red book merger committee chairman who told me up front we were going to get our butts kicked. Our guy was the same one who had lost in Republic v NWA and USAir v America West. He is abrasive and I liked reading his stuff as much as you did. Your guy could have (and had) help us with anyone.......but you.
Oh well.......like I said water under the bridge. In general, I think each of us liked reading our lawyers "stuff" like you like watching your kids play high school football. You are going to cheer for your kid.
We took IMHO a bad stance with DOH. USAir had just gotten their butt handed to them using that argument, but we had no choice. But that is a 2 hour beer discussion on red/green/blue food fights that is way above my ability to type.
Ferd
04-11-2010, 09:08 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Waves,
Don't get me started on the arbitration transcripts. I wrote several times on here even prehearings what we could expect. In general, I had been a juror on a case where a movie producer sued Blockbuster. Two weeks of very interesting stuff.......if you like contracts and money trails.
Anyway, what I learned is we sold our souls when we quit trying to come up with a list ourselves and gave it to the lawyers. The lawyers job was to paint the "other side" as greedy bloodsucker and it did just what I predicted. Made each other look like greedy bloodsuckers. I don't think either side challenged much of the others numbers. More like getting their talking points in....sort of like talking heads on the Sunday morning political talk shows.
With that said, you had the much better lawyer. I've flown with several past reps and the old red book merger committee chairman who told me up front we were going to get our butts kicked. Our guy was the same one who had lost in Republic v NWA and USAir v America West. He is abrasive and I liked reading his stuff as much as you did. Your guy could have (and had) help us with anyone.......but you.
Oh well.......like I said water under the bridge. In general, I think each of us liked reading our lawyers "stuff" like you like watching your kids play high school football. You are going to cheer for your kid.
We took IMHO a bad stance with DOH. USAir had just gotten their butt handed to them using that argument, but we had no choice. But that is a 2 hour beer discussion on red/green/blue food fights that is way above my ability to type.
Ferd
Don't get me started on the arbitration transcripts. I wrote several times on here even prehearings what we could expect. In general, I had been a juror on a case where a movie producer sued Blockbuster. Two weeks of very interesting stuff.......if you like contracts and money trails.
Anyway, what I learned is we sold our souls when we quit trying to come up with a list ourselves and gave it to the lawyers. The lawyers job was to paint the "other side" as greedy bloodsucker and it did just what I predicted. Made each other look like greedy bloodsuckers. I don't think either side challenged much of the others numbers. More like getting their talking points in....sort of like talking heads on the Sunday morning political talk shows.
With that said, you had the much better lawyer. I've flown with several past reps and the old red book merger committee chairman who told me up front we were going to get our butts kicked. Our guy was the same one who had lost in Republic v NWA and USAir v America West. He is abrasive and I liked reading his stuff as much as you did. Your guy could have (and had) help us with anyone.......but you.
Oh well.......like I said water under the bridge. In general, I think each of us liked reading our lawyers "stuff" like you like watching your kids play high school football. You are going to cheer for your kid.
We took IMHO a bad stance with DOH. USAir had just gotten their butt handed to them using that argument, but we had no choice. But that is a 2 hour beer discussion on red/green/blue food fights that is way above my ability to type.
Ferd
I too have been a juror on a six counts of attempted murder of three children trial. I remember at the jury selection, I was quietly saying to myself, “Don’t pick me.” They picked me. Damn! I saw how lawyers twisted things around to mean something it didn’t. Yeah I knew you guys got the attorney from the USAir case and I well remember in the mediation thinking, “OK, NWA’s lawyers suck, and we have really good ones. They are going to get their arses handed to them.” I don’t really think that happened, but the mediators went 80% DAL/20% NWA. I agree and truly think the DOH stance was where the NWA’s lost some ground with the arbitrators.
Having said that, as I mentioned before, I will concede when I have been shown to be wrong. You are the first I have seen here that has taken this strong and adamant view that the attorney teams were just flat out wrong on their numbers. If this is true, I will concede your point and move on; however, it still saddens me that you guys feel like you got shafted in the deal. Hopefully, we can ALL come together and mitigate some of those damages and losses. I think we are a better stronger team together than we were as stand alones. As some have mentioned, look at all the other carriers lining up to try and emulate what we have done. Good luck with that.
That brings me to another sort of related point. NWA’s sick leave. You guys have indicated a huge loss on that issue. My sincere apologies.
My questions are: How did it work? Did you guys accrue sick leave your entire careers? Was it saleable? Was it useable at the end of your career to early out? Was it like a vacation bank? I think at UAL, they get paid for unused sick leave at the end of the year, sort of like our vacation bank. I would like to see a change to our sick leave policy.
04-11-2010, 09:11 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,512
Waves,
Ill take a stab at the pay thingie. It will be overly simplistic, but I'm overly simplistic.
Keenster is a whale guy so his hours are, in general, the same from month to month (low but somewhat consistent) where yours and mine are probably a lot alike.
The two premerger airlines manned differently, which makes comparisons difficult. NWA manned by block hour vs Delta manned by jet. If I knew any more than that I've forgotten......great memory, it's just real short.
Both airlines carried a minimum number of guys to cover basically winter then got used to guys flying overtime in the summer. You did it with GS and rolling thunder (I still don't know what that is), we did it with a flex up months. It's like ALV but different.....shoot I don't even remember what it was called.
But, for example, in the winter I would normally fly 73 to 75 hours. In the summer I'd fly 85 and I can remember flying 88 after bankruptcy (scheduled not picked up, modified or BOBed). In fact, even up to Bid period 5 for us 757 guys, the Asia trips were 14 day 83-85 hour trips.
So as you can see, the arbitrators were wrong. I flew straight time for 7 or 8 hours a month and the rest would be built so most guys were flying 1.5 over 80.
Just a different way of skinning the cat. Oh, and we also had your version of the green slip. Super premium dog **** trips that were unsellable that went for 2x......never did one. In fact I refused to commute to high time, too much like tempting fate. Plus, I thought picking up high time with guys on furlough was immoral.
Dont know if that helps
Ferd
Ill take a stab at the pay thingie. It will be overly simplistic, but I'm overly simplistic.
Keenster is a whale guy so his hours are, in general, the same from month to month (low but somewhat consistent) where yours and mine are probably a lot alike.
The two premerger airlines manned differently, which makes comparisons difficult. NWA manned by block hour vs Delta manned by jet. If I knew any more than that I've forgotten......great memory, it's just real short.
Both airlines carried a minimum number of guys to cover basically winter then got used to guys flying overtime in the summer. You did it with GS and rolling thunder (I still don't know what that is), we did it with a flex up months. It's like ALV but different.....shoot I don't even remember what it was called.
But, for example, in the winter I would normally fly 73 to 75 hours. In the summer I'd fly 85 and I can remember flying 88 after bankruptcy (scheduled not picked up, modified or BOBed). In fact, even up to Bid period 5 for us 757 guys, the Asia trips were 14 day 83-85 hour trips.
So as you can see, the arbitrators were wrong. I flew straight time for 7 or 8 hours a month and the rest would be built so most guys were flying 1.5 over 80.
Just a different way of skinning the cat. Oh, and we also had your version of the green slip. Super premium dog **** trips that were unsellable that went for 2x......never did one. In fact I refused to commute to high time, too much like tempting fate. Plus, I thought picking up high time with guys on furlough was immoral.
Dont know if that helps
Ferd
Ferd, The Delta manning formula is based on block hours. We do not use number of jets at all. Rolling thunder is not what the company uses to cover trips. It is a method pilots have used to make a lot of money on reserve. The company hates Rolling thunder and tried to eliminate the section of the contract that allows pilots to use it in the 1113 process by eliminating the payback days on a reserve greenslip. They will try and do that again on the next contract.
When both sides met to try and produce a combined contract one reason the Delta contract was used as the base was that when the numbers were run it produced a lot more dollars in each pilots pocket then the NWA contract. The problem you have is that NW pilots are trying to compare their earnings in 09 after a huge economic collapse to earnings in prior years. I just did my taxes and I earned 35,000 fewer dollars in 09 then 08. It was a fact of reduced flying for both Delta and NWA pilots not the contract. In the 3 years before the merger I earned about 30,000 a year more then a NWA pilot hired a year ahead of me on the same equipment. Our combined incomes were much closer in 09 and will be about the same in 10 I suspect.
Had their been no merger NWA incomes for pilots would have been way down. The fareast collapsed faster and deeper then any other travel sector. The good news is that it now appears the far east may be recovering at a faster rate then other markets so hopefully the future will bring more income for all Delta pilots N and S.
04-11-2010, 09:14 AM
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Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Nice while it lasted
Posts: 326
My questions are: How did it work? Did you guys accrue sick leave your entire careers? Was it saleable? Was it useable at the end of your career to early out? Was it like a vacation bank? I think at UAL, they get paid for unused sick leave at the end of the year, sort of like our vacation bank. I would like to see a change to our sick leave policy.
04-11-2010, 09:15 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Tsquare, I'm not the one who stole Kiffin so back off. You obviously didn't see my follow up post. We used to have a reserve system with reserve guarantee tied to the alv,as the alv went up so did the reserve guarantee. This would cause the company to have a choice when they raised the alv,they knew it was going to cost them, a deterrent to continually run high alv's thus requiring more bodies in category.If you just raise the min guar. for reserves the company has : a) more reserve hours to work with possibly causing the loss of a few bodies. b) the alv will still be run high because it requires less manning,again less bodies.
I presume you are a reserve 76er capt.,so you want more pay and less positions ? Now who's pulling up the ladder. Roll Tide
P.S. I know from your prior posts that is not what you are saying or want.I bet we want the same thing,Improvements in all areas of the contract(including reserve) and ZERO scope give backs. The 1 point that I was trying but obviously failed to make is: If we have to make choices let the choice be the one that benefits the majority of our pilots, not the top 10% nor the bottom 10%. Peace
I presume you are a reserve 76er capt.,so you want more pay and less positions ? Now who's pulling up the ladder. Roll Tide
P.S. I know from your prior posts that is not what you are saying or want.I bet we want the same thing,Improvements in all areas of the contract(including reserve) and ZERO scope give backs. The 1 point that I was trying but obviously failed to make is: If we have to make choices let the choice be the one that benefits the majority of our pilots, not the top 10% nor the bottom 10%. Peace
04-11-2010, 09:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Thanks Job, losing that is definitely a pay cut. Not only is it a pay cut for the individual, it is a pay cut for those below, as those guys will no longer retire early. I like that system and will be hoping we get something like it.
04-11-2010, 09:22 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Ferd, The Delta manning formula is based on block hours. We do not use number of jets at all. Rolling thunder is not what the company uses to cover trips. It is a method pilots have used to make a lot of money on reserve. The company hates Rolling thunder and tried to eliminate the section of the contract that allows pilots to use it in the 1113 process by eliminating the payback days on a reserve greenslip. They will try and do that again on the next contract.
When both sides met to try and produce a combined contract one reason the Delta contract was used as the base was that when the numbers were run it produced a lot more dollars in each pilots pocket then the NWA contract. The problem you have is that NW pilots are trying to compare their earnings in 09 after a huge economic collapse to earnings in prior years. I just did my taxes and I earned 35,000 fewer dollars in 09 then 08. It was a fact of reduced flying for both Delta and NWA pilots not the contract. In the 3 years before the merger I earned about 30,000 a year more then a NWA pilot hired a year ahead of me on the same equipment. Our combined incomes were much closer in 09 and will be about the same in 10 I suspect.
Had their been no merger NWA incomes for pilots would have been way down. The fareast collapsed faster and deeper then any other travel sector. The good news is that it now appears the far east may be recovering at a faster rate then other markets so hopefully the future will bring more income for all Delta pilots N and S.
When both sides met to try and produce a combined contract one reason the Delta contract was used as the base was that when the numbers were run it produced a lot more dollars in each pilots pocket then the NWA contract. The problem you have is that NW pilots are trying to compare their earnings in 09 after a huge economic collapse to earnings in prior years. I just did my taxes and I earned 35,000 fewer dollars in 09 then 08. It was a fact of reduced flying for both Delta and NWA pilots not the contract. In the 3 years before the merger I earned about 30,000 a year more then a NWA pilot hired a year ahead of me on the same equipment. Our combined incomes were much closer in 09 and will be about the same in 10 I suspect.
Had their been no merger NWA incomes for pilots would have been way down. The fareast collapsed faster and deeper then any other travel sector. The good news is that it now appears the far east may be recovering at a faster rate then other markets so hopefully the future will bring more income for all Delta pilots N and S.
04-11-2010, 09:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: Boeing Boss
Posts: 335
Anyway, what I learned is we sold our souls when we quit trying to come up with a list ourselves and gave it to the lawyers. The lawyers job was to paint the "other side" as greedy bloodsucker and it did just what I predicted. Made each other look like greedy bloodsuckers. I don't think either side challenged much of the others numbers. More like getting their talking points in...
The Delta team showed up more prepared and with a well thought-out understanding of where the SLI would end up. I think the results prove that. Our team doomed us to failure 2 years earlier when they elected arguers instead of thinkers and planners.
04-11-2010, 09:42 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Let's not forget to think critically about what we're reading here... This is a forum, not a seminar on Northern or Southen doctrine and thought. I know a few guys like to think they speak for their "side", but, really, they don't.
So...
One South guy thinks the merger wasn't bad, but it chaps his a$$ that a North guy gets to bid ATL.
Another thinks the merger wasn't bad, but his pet issue is that the North guys got a huuuge raise.
Yet another thinks Tokyo was junk, and the DC-9 is worthless, but he doesn't mind the SLI.
6,997 think Britney Spears is just plain stupid, and Cheerleaders are cool. And they're not posting here.
One North guy urinates on a picture of Moak every morning, but he thinks double-breasted is cool.
Another hates the hat, but likes the paycheck.
Another focuses on the Whale, because it's all that matters.
5,497 don't like paying taxes, and are like cheerleaders too. They have better things to do than posting here.
...
My point is this: this forum does not a representation of two pilot groups make. Almost every actual, person-to-person contact between a North and South guy has been positive. The glaring exception is guys with agendas, such as guys running for something, or trying to boot someone else out of office. So when you read this stuff, please try to remember you're looking at a very small piece of the puzzle, and even the people that are posting on one particular aspect of the merger have fairly even views of a) the merger, and b) the "other" half of the family. If you further sift through the various subtexts, and eliminate all the union politics that have crept on here, there really isn't that much discontent. If you focus not on the few things that are being said here, but on the actions of 12,000 guys daily, it's pretty obvious everyone is mostly going to work, and not all that obsessed with divisive issues. We're mostly just trying to keep the kids off drugs, and the wife off the poolboy. Which she will do, if I ever get off the computer first.
So...
One South guy thinks the merger wasn't bad, but it chaps his a$$ that a North guy gets to bid ATL.
Another thinks the merger wasn't bad, but his pet issue is that the North guys got a huuuge raise.
Yet another thinks Tokyo was junk, and the DC-9 is worthless, but he doesn't mind the SLI.
6,997 think Britney Spears is just plain stupid, and Cheerleaders are cool. And they're not posting here.
One North guy urinates on a picture of Moak every morning, but he thinks double-breasted is cool.
Another hates the hat, but likes the paycheck.
Another focuses on the Whale, because it's all that matters.
5,497 don't like paying taxes, and are like cheerleaders too. They have better things to do than posting here.
...
My point is this: this forum does not a representation of two pilot groups make. Almost every actual, person-to-person contact between a North and South guy has been positive. The glaring exception is guys with agendas, such as guys running for something, or trying to boot someone else out of office. So when you read this stuff, please try to remember you're looking at a very small piece of the puzzle, and even the people that are posting on one particular aspect of the merger have fairly even views of a) the merger, and b) the "other" half of the family. If you further sift through the various subtexts, and eliminate all the union politics that have crept on here, there really isn't that much discontent. If you focus not on the few things that are being said here, but on the actions of 12,000 guys daily, it's pretty obvious everyone is mostly going to work, and not all that obsessed with divisive issues. We're mostly just trying to keep the kids off drugs, and the wife off the poolboy. Which she will do, if I ever get off the computer first.
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