RockyBoy

If they had to pay us 1.5X pay for hours over 80, we would never have PBS building 87 hour lines. Right now they will do it because they can straight pay us for those 7 hours. The 73N fleet has an ALV ov 81 hours for May. So guys could get 87 hour lines in May on that fleet. I'd bet if they had to pay all those hours at 1.5X pay, they would hire guys. If they didn't, then the hourly rate for the 73N would effectivly be higher for those guys doing flying they are now doing for the straight rate.

Waves

OMG! THANK YOU! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN GETTING AT. A pay raise isn't a raise if one has to work more to get it. We could all lobby the FAA to let us fly 2000 hours per year so we would all get a raise. Our W-2's would be huge and we wouldn't need homes or families. Just think of the cost savings. Boggles the mind.

P.S. Also remember in this GS discussion: GS's/overtime flying has been determined in a court of law to be mandatory. The company bases the manning formula using that legality.

P.P.S. My commuting FA wife is going to be forced into flying 85 hours all summer. If you guys in favor of this 87 hour line Continental type pay raise make this happen for the pilot group, I will be steamed!

Scoop

Rocky,

I agree G/S also allow the company to run leaner and as I have said before the G/S method is not perfect. I prefer greenslips because I can fly a line put in for greeslips and then decide if I like it and the whole thing will pay 2X. I don't want to fly over 80 just for 1.5X. Then again I have done 3 greenslips in 11 years.

I am at the disdvantage of not having worked under both systems and am willing to be flexible so why not push for a MEC study or a beta test for the next contract.

Anyway like I said this was discussed in great detail a few thousand posts ago and I posted an analysis of flying 75/80/85 and maybe even 90 hours under both systems and don't have the time or the energy to revisit it - lets just get a big raise so we can just fly our lines and enjoy our days off. I'm still hurting from the 73 mile 5800 feet of vertical bike ride this morning.

Scoop

RockyBoy

I don't think any of us are touting the 1.5X thing as a payraise. Some of us have to work more than 80 hours to make a middle class income. We're just trying to figure out a way to make more money easier. I'm all for flying 65 hours if I can make some money. I flew to the cap every month I could this year and made 85K. Until I can make 100K flying min guarantee, I'll lobby for whatever it takes to raise my pay. I would hope it is in payrates, but that would require a 37% raise over current rates. Not gonna happen, so we also need to look at other income earning opportunities like premium pay so those of us junior guys can make more than our neighbors who are supervisors at Wal-Mart. You've actually seen times when pilots could make alot of money, some of us haven't so I guess our perspectives are a little different.

RockyBoy

I'm with you on the study. The actual data might just make me change my mind on the issue.

Impressive ride! Are you a SLC guy? If you are we should go for a ride. I'm sure we could fit in a productive discussion during a long climb.

Scoop

73N LAX based and live in San Diego - We don't have the skiing access you guys do but it sure is hard to beat for year around biking. I can start at my house and ride the coast, inland, moutains or the desert.

And it would have been even more impressive if I didn't get my butt dropped on the last climb.

Scoop

Waves

Yeah, some guys here were trying to pass it off as a pay raise. I totally understand trying to make above the food stamp level, but again, we must all work together to get our rates back up to an acceptable level so we don't have to work our lives away. One of our former CFO's was quoted as saying, "Pilots and Flight Attendants are nothing more than part time help." This came from a POS who had only been here for a short time and was pulling some real non-reving crap with his family. We must break this idiotic management mentality that we are not worthy of our pay. Cheers!

Ferd149

I remember several years ago a heated discussion on the old NWA ALPA board about the morality of flying "high time" with guys on furlough. Anyway, some of the union types argued that it was in the contract and that there was a minimum staffing formula and the company was above that so flying high time was ok.

I never bought it, but the argument went round and round. Which I'll bet the GS vs 1.5 over 80 does when looked at from a staffing stand point.

Ferd

newKnow

Holy Moly, Gentlemen. I leave for the day and it has started (again).

My estimate is that this North v. South flareup occurs once evey 10 days or so. It reminds me of a joke that was sent to me.....

[Joke]

I rear-ended a car this morning. So, there we were alongside the road and slowly the other driver got out of his car. You know how sometimes you just get soooo stressed and little things just seem funny? Yeah, well I couldn't believe it.... he was a DWARF!!! He stormed over to my car, looked up at me, and shouted, 'I AM NOT HAPPY!!!' So, I looked down at him and said, 'Well, then which one are you?' And that's how the fight started.....

[End Joke]

To me, it seems that whenever a North guy shouts, "I am not happy!!!" inevitably, someone will reply with something like this...


Or, this....

Then somehow the discussion gets turned onto who got pay raises, or a windfall, or better bases, or better reserve rules, or whatever.

And that's how the fight starts......

I will concede that sometimes if North guys framed suggestions and observations in a little less accusatory way, things would be better. I'm sure I would take offense if someone continuously told me that the way had been doing things for years was wrong or stupid or dumb. I hope to be able to frame my discussions on the New DAL policies and procedures and where we should go from here in a less offensive way. But, posts like the ones above don't help either.

I don't understand why how much of a pay raise the North group got or didn't get has anything to do with any discussion on here. Is this an implication that this alleged extra money should buy our silence? Are you saying that we should just be grateful and not offer our advice acquired through cheap experience? Please. This is insulting, too.

It's time for us to stop this. We need to police each other regardless of color or side. I've seen 80k call out South guys for post like the above and I've seen Super do the same to North guys. Good for both of you. Keep it up. It's funny how the young guys on here seem to be the most mature.

By the way, more cheerleader pics please, Super and 80!

Carry on.


New K

keenster

Waves,
It is hard for you to realize the losses of the N side because you have not experienced any of the losses that we did with our contract going away. Some things are QOL items that are difficult to put a dollar value on. Did we get a pay raise?? Yes, if you look only at hourly rates. That is very simple. But lets look at W-2s

2008 w-2 :$134,741.06 days worked 99 total 1361$/day
2009 w-2 :$133,934.12 days worked 134 total 1000$/day
2010 w-2 :$140,125.00 days worked 132 total 1061$/day base on avg
for 01/02
So on w-2s alone I made less in 09(DALrates) than in 08(NWA rates) with the huge huge huge pay raise that I got. In the SLI postings we were told time and time again about our huge pay raises that we were getting(go check them out on the old merger page). I said that the numbers did not show that and was told I was totally wrong. And how about that $PER DAY FIGURE
That equates to huge quality of life losses. Lost 2000 hours of sick pay: approx $270,000.00 for me. I was planning on bailing out early but lost medical coverage for early goers so I gotta stick around now. And I can keep going on things that were lost. I am grateful for the raises in pay that were achieved, but had you not got them where would we have been??? Pretty much they just kept us even with where we were. I hope this puts this issue to bed and I for one am sick and tired of it. The above numbers are facts and I got paperwork to back them up. I flew the same time pretty much every month approx 76-77 hours on average. So while it is so easy for you to make your statements where are your facts? So when you tell me that I got a huge pay raise, and I look at the above numbers, it kinda really ticks me off. If that's your goal keep it up you are doing a fine job.

And for the really big one, I would have finished up as capt on the 330 with the last couple years on the 747. It will take a small miracle for me just to get on the 330 after SLI, and I sure did not want to do it on reserve. The only hope is that we grow and expand??????

So, there is a perspective from a N-guy. Most of us are not really happy about this merger. Has nothing to do with N vs S guys on a personal level. I tell my self "that's life" and try to get on with things and hope for the best. I can't speak for the rest of the guys on their w-2s those are just mine. It seems as though you think this merger was a bed of roses for us, but for us there are lots of thorns in that bed. Maybe now you understand us a little more.

P.S. THis post is to be considered informative only and is not meant to further this argument. I would like to put this dog(huge pay raise) to bed and let it lie. You never wake an old dog asleep on the porch. I am done with it.