Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-07-2010, 03:45 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Now you are just making things up. I have never said scope should be for sale and you can not point to a final deal ever cut at Delta where scope was put up for sale. That is the point you refuse to acknowledge. If you can, then please provide the exact amounts of credit for any change in scope. So are you:
A. Joking
B. Not going to be bothered by the facts
C. All of the above
I have heard the term IBB but I leave to you to provide the definition. As far as I can tell, the definition is any negotiation where Bucking does not get his way. In general, it used by webboard cowboys as a pseudo intellectual slam at any negotiation where they are upset.
I still leave it to you to describe a non-IBB bargaining process.
A. Joking
B. Not going to be bothered by the facts
C. All of the above
I have heard the term IBB but I leave to you to provide the definition. As far as I can tell, the definition is any negotiation where Bucking does not get his way. In general, it used by webboard cowboys as a pseudo intellectual slam at any negotiation where they are upset.
I still leave it to you to describe a non-IBB bargaining process.
04-07-2010, 03:55 PM
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
ASA wasn't as guilty as Comair but they weren't anywhere the saint some make them out to be.... seems the only way to get hired at ASA was to be an ex-ASA pilot.
I had an ATR type, 2000 in type, went & saw them at the Air Inc Job fair, and 3 letters of rec from ASA Capt's and couldn't buy an interview at ASA...
I had an ATR type, 2000 in type, went & saw them at the Air Inc Job fair, and 3 letters of rec from ASA Capt's and couldn't buy an interview at ASA...
04-07-2010, 04:01 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
04-07-2010, 04:02 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Alpha - thanks. I deleted that post because in retrospect, it was insulting and I apologize.
You are correct the transcript was a snapshot of a very active period of negotiations. You are correct that we've used the same bargaining process. (and I suspect C96 was our first real deep exposure to this process, based on the consultants Ron Allen brought in for that negotiation)
Moving forward, we would benefit by making scope inviolate. By not empowering our CNC to even discuss further outsourcing. Some (not me) have even suggested moving scope negotiations to National to avoid any MEC being enabled to trade job security provisions.
Management (and the NMB) understand a union's obligation to protect jobs. IMHO making a moral stand on this issue is easy to communicate, effective and builds unity.
The ALPA leader who rediscovers "unity" and understands how to achieve it using scope is going to be a powerful force. (I'll volunteer to be their speech writer)
You are correct the transcript was a snapshot of a very active period of negotiations. You are correct that we've used the same bargaining process. (and I suspect C96 was our first real deep exposure to this process, based on the consultants Ron Allen brought in for that negotiation)
Moving forward, we would benefit by making scope inviolate. By not empowering our CNC to even discuss further outsourcing. Some (not me) have even suggested moving scope negotiations to National to avoid any MEC being enabled to trade job security provisions.
Management (and the NMB) understand a union's obligation to protect jobs. IMHO making a moral stand on this issue is easy to communicate, effective and builds unity.
The ALPA leader who rediscovers "unity" and understands how to achieve it using scope is going to be a powerful force. (I'll volunteer to be their speech writer)
My whole point is that we made some hard choices in bankruptcy. The lesson I learned was that you better find a way to make your company stronger because when the company makes more money you can demand more money. When the company goes bankrupt, you are going to eat it.
I pushed our union to consider consolidation long before it was even considered by management. In order to bring a rational balance between supply and demand, there needs to be fewer players in the system. We are always beholden to our stupidest and weakest competitors. In my 20 years in the industry the up and down cycle has reached a period of negative stability where the highs are really high and the lows are really low. C2K was signed four years before bankruptcy.
Also, to break the cycle of RJ growth, we needed to consolidate capacity into less competitors. We see that now as mainline narrow body flying is growing in the merged company while they can't get rid of RJ's fast enough.
A strong company is the only job security you will ever have. You make the company strong by helping them compete in the marketplace, not by giving concessions.
04-07-2010, 04:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Management had to show that without the contract rejection, the company would be unable to survive an exit from Chapter 11. You are going to have to ask management why they made the decisions they did. They asked for 200 79 seat aircraft because they wanted to.
They also asked to get rid of virtually every work rule we had. They asked to terminate our pension and give us nothing in return. They asked for a 21% pay cut with no provision for any performance based return or any build back. They asked for lots of stuff.
They also asked to get rid of virtually every work rule we had. They asked to terminate our pension and give us nothing in return. They asked for a 21% pay cut with no provision for any performance based return or any build back. They asked for lots of stuff.
I always like to tell stories to lighten up the stress. I hope that's OK. When I was displaced from being a 727 Captain (DAL parked them), I wanted to go to whatever paid the highest I could hold. After carefully looking (not) at the pay scales, I decided to go to the MD-11 FO. After getting the assignment, one of my FO's said, "Why didn't you go to the 767-400, because it pays more?" I thought, ---what an idiot, he thinks that a much smaller aircraft pays more. Who was the idiot? Well, that would be me. Always check your pay scales before bidding, you may end up being surprised like me. By the way, the training on the MD-11 was a bugger! What a complex machine it was/is.
04-07-2010, 04:08 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Yep trying to buy something like scope back can be equated to going back to a pawn shop and trying to get your wife's wedding ring back for the same price you sold it for. Ain't going to happen! 
04-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Wow, I think Bar and Alfa are starting to narrow their differences. Isn't it amazing how we all truly want the same thing, but differ so widely on how to attain or achieve them. Ain't I smart? I should be writing Chinese proverbs. OK, maybe not.
04-07-2010, 04:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
04-07-2010, 04:17 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
I disagree with the scope was sold also. It was a demand and issue like any other part of the contract. In the contracts where the company made major gains in scope it was always the last thing agreed on. The other section including compensation and work rules were complete and inked before agreements were reached on scope.
04-07-2010, 04:20 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
So here is where we agree. After eating that bitter pill in bankruptcy, I don't want to taste that ever again. I still remember when I got the message talking about the final deal, I was ****ed beyond belief. I have not heard anyone in any position of power express anything different. I am not sure you will ever see a pilot group cede negotiating power to National, that goes against the general philosophy of pilots.
My whole point is that we made some hard choices in bankruptcy. The lesson I learned was that you better find a way to make your company stronger because when the company makes more money you can demand more money. When the company goes bankrupt, you are going to eat it.
I pushed our union to consider consolidation long before it was even considered by management. In order to bring a rational balance between supply and demand, there needs to be fewer players in the system. We are always beholden to our stupidest and weakest competitors. In my 20 years in the industry the up and down cycle has reached a period of negative stability where the highs are really high and the lows are really low. C2K was signed four years before bankruptcy.
Also, to break the cycle of RJ growth, we needed to consolidate capacity into less competitors. We see that now as mainline narrow body flying is growing in the merged company while they can't get rid of RJ's fast enough.
A strong company is the only job security you will ever have. You make the company strong by helping them compete in the marketplace, not by giving concessions.
My whole point is that we made some hard choices in bankruptcy. The lesson I learned was that you better find a way to make your company stronger because when the company makes more money you can demand more money. When the company goes bankrupt, you are going to eat it.
I pushed our union to consider consolidation long before it was even considered by management. In order to bring a rational balance between supply and demand, there needs to be fewer players in the system. We are always beholden to our stupidest and weakest competitors. In my 20 years in the industry the up and down cycle has reached a period of negative stability where the highs are really high and the lows are really low. C2K was signed four years before bankruptcy.
Also, to break the cycle of RJ growth, we needed to consolidate capacity into less competitors. We see that now as mainline narrow body flying is growing in the merged company while they can't get rid of RJ's fast enough.
A strong company is the only job security you will ever have. You make the company strong by helping them compete in the marketplace, not by giving concessions.
Great points.
I will add that we do not need to fear reaching to far in our goals. IMO it is ok to ask for what we want.
As it states in flying the line, pro union pilots are also very pro company as well. It makes sense and is a short trip for pilots to want to see their company do well. It also makes sense to say that we want them to do will but not at our expense.
1113C stunk, it is behind us, and my position is that we should not fear another round of Ch11. I often wonder if that fear clouds some judgment.
Either way I agree with your points. Having the gun of 1113C pointed at your head is no place to be, and it is defiantly not a place you can negotiate from a position of strength.
I also agree that the players need to thin out. DAL made the correct decision in beating the competition to the punch. As our profit numbers will show, consolidation will help rationalize this industry. DAL choosing to do this in the worst recession in recent time will prove to be a strategic win. As we will shortly see, our competition will be dealing with major integration issues in a growth phase, and as a result will have a very difficult time keeping up the Delta. This will allow us and the company to step the game up. It is our time to take advantage of this rare opportunity. IMO it may be the first such opportunity to truly get ahead in this industry since deregulation.
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