Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-07-2010, 03:22 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
You also have to differentiate between the arbitration position and the real bargaining position which as you know are often different. In the arbitration, you have to put things in the most positive light for your case. Like I said, I forgot that he had used the term bargaining credit.
There was no credit sought nor was any credit given for the scope change to 76 seat aircraft in the final deal which was the only significant change. I saw the entire breakdown on costing and there is no line for scope there. That is a fact that you want to ignore.
Can you now describe for me how a non-IBB bargaining goes? It seems that you get to describe anything you don't like as IBB. Shouldn't you have some idea of how it should be? We used the same bargaining process in C2K and in bankruptcy. Were they both IBB bargaining or neither?
04-07-2010, 03:25 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Waves, of course the company will assign a value to sell the 100 seat and below market. They will tie it in a compensation bow. So what, we own that flying, and if we have any brains, we need to keep it. History shows that once it is lost it is never found.
04-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
yes, I have all my teeth, I learned to duck a long time ago!
04-07-2010, 03:28 PM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
S
Now I love how you slip into the victim mentality. Oh, we sold you out for scope. Well how about my pension? What was that sold for? Overall, I have taken paycuts equal to an entire RJ crew. What was that sold for? You continue to try to point to the logic of the situation that you were screwed so others could get more. If you feel put upon by the last few years take a number. The reality of the situation was that the MEC faced a tough choice. Accept the unacceptable changes to scope or have our contract completely rejected.
If our contract was rejected, it would have been highly likely that the situation at Delta would have deteriorated as the uncertainty surrounding the airline grew. Could the pilots strike? Who would lend exit financing? Who would sign lease deals with Delta? In that chaos that followed it is highly likely that an offer like US Air would have been taken. Our scope clause that protected block hours would have been rejected along with the entire contract. In that case the entire MD-88 fleet is gone. 1500 jobs gone. The company ripped apart by Doug Parker. Not to mention all of the flight attendants, gate agents, etc, people we have known and worked with for 20 years or more.
So the MEC accepted the unacceptable in view of the broader picture. The rest of our scope language was maintained. The company righted itself and started to grow. They hired 700 new pilots, including you. There were many widebody upgrades as we increased 777, 767-400, and ER flying. The union made a deliberate effort to change the labor dynamic to create a better place to work and also improve our attractiveness to investors. The union then made a deliberate effort to facilitate consolidation to create a stronger industry competitor. All of these efforts have paid off for those junior pilots that you claim are victims of the evil seniors. You got pretty close to the same amount of stock from this transaction as I did. I had 20+ years with the company and you had 1. Wow, you got screwed.
Now I love how you slip into the victim mentality. Oh, we sold you out for scope. Well how about my pension? What was that sold for? Overall, I have taken paycuts equal to an entire RJ crew. What was that sold for? You continue to try to point to the logic of the situation that you were screwed so others could get more. If you feel put upon by the last few years take a number. The reality of the situation was that the MEC faced a tough choice. Accept the unacceptable changes to scope or have our contract completely rejected.
If our contract was rejected, it would have been highly likely that the situation at Delta would have deteriorated as the uncertainty surrounding the airline grew. Could the pilots strike? Who would lend exit financing? Who would sign lease deals with Delta? In that chaos that followed it is highly likely that an offer like US Air would have been taken. Our scope clause that protected block hours would have been rejected along with the entire contract. In that case the entire MD-88 fleet is gone. 1500 jobs gone. The company ripped apart by Doug Parker. Not to mention all of the flight attendants, gate agents, etc, people we have known and worked with for 20 years or more.
So the MEC accepted the unacceptable in view of the broader picture. The rest of our scope language was maintained. The company righted itself and started to grow. They hired 700 new pilots, including you. There were many widebody upgrades as we increased 777, 767-400, and ER flying. The union made a deliberate effort to change the labor dynamic to create a better place to work and also improve our attractiveness to investors. The union then made a deliberate effort to facilitate consolidation to create a stronger industry competitor. All of these efforts have paid off for those junior pilots that you claim are victims of the evil seniors. You got pretty close to the same amount of stock from this transaction as I did. I had 20+ years with the company and you had 1. Wow, you got screwed.
Does the company have to gauge the appetite of the pilot group at the time and then determine what they can get out of you? Why was 76 seat flying and below even on the menu?
04-07-2010, 03:34 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
I wasn't from there, but I lived in the South for about 30 years. I feel like I can at least poke fun at it.
04-07-2010, 03:37 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Deleted in kind.
Last edited by alfaromeo; 04-07-2010 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Sometimes emotion gets the better of us.
04-07-2010, 03:37 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I am from up north and love the South. It has some great charm, and awesome food.
Schools on the other hand......
BTW I think I missed that day of indoc!
Schools on the other hand......
BTW I think I missed that day of indoc!
04-07-2010, 03:38 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
Alpha - thanks. I deleted that post because in retrospect, it was insulting and I apologize.
You are correct the transcript was a snapshot of a very active period of negotiations. You are correct that we've used the same bargaining process. (and I suspect C96 was our first real deep exposure to this process, based on the consultants Ron Allen brought in for that negotiation)
Moving forward, we would benefit by making scope inviolate. By not empowering our CNC to even discuss further outsourcing. Some (not me) have even suggested moving scope negotiations to National to avoid any MEC being enabled to trade job security provisions.
Management (and the NMB) understand a union's obligation to protect jobs. IMHO making a moral stand on this issue is easy to communicate, effective and builds unity. The ALPA leader who rediscovers "unity" and understands how to achieve it using scope is going to be a powerful force. (I'll volunteer to be their speech writer)
With regard to IBB, there is no way to remove it entirely from negotiations. As you point out, when it comes to allocating monetary items the logic is sound and the NMB lists IBB among their "tools." IBB is not going away. My modification would simply be to remove scope from being an "Interest" we could "Bargain." To be effective this change really needs to be done at National, since these NMB Arbitrators look around our competitors and benchmark our activities based on their negotiations. We lead National.
To the credit of our MEC at the time, they did a great jobs with:
You are correct the transcript was a snapshot of a very active period of negotiations. You are correct that we've used the same bargaining process. (and I suspect C96 was our first real deep exposure to this process, based on the consultants Ron Allen brought in for that negotiation)
Moving forward, we would benefit by making scope inviolate. By not empowering our CNC to even discuss further outsourcing. Some (not me) have even suggested moving scope negotiations to National to avoid any MEC being enabled to trade job security provisions.
Management (and the NMB) understand a union's obligation to protect jobs. IMHO making a moral stand on this issue is easy to communicate, effective and builds unity. The ALPA leader who rediscovers "unity" and understands how to achieve it using scope is going to be a powerful force. (I'll volunteer to be their speech writer)
With regard to IBB, there is no way to remove it entirely from negotiations. As you point out, when it comes to allocating monetary items the logic is sound and the NMB lists IBB among their "tools." IBB is not going away. My modification would simply be to remove scope from being an "Interest" we could "Bargain." To be effective this change really needs to be done at National, since these NMB Arbitrators look around our competitors and benchmark our activities based on their negotiations. We lead National.
To the credit of our MEC at the time, they did a great jobs with:
- Making it clear Delta pilots could operate those airplanes and offered to work with management on building that economic model
- Negotiating pay rates on 100 seat aircraft (even if management did that to cap DCI bargaining)
- ... and I will defer to you on the issue of 79 to 76 seat jets.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-07-2010 at 03:50 PM.
04-07-2010, 03:39 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Secondly, once we give up something, it is extremely costly and difficult to get it back. I'm still delusional in the hopes that I will get my pension back. Delusional pretty well sums it up.
04-07-2010, 03:44 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Great points, everyone has given up a lot; I will ask a few questions though. If management had the ability to reject the contract why did they not go for more? Why not take the Song guys off the list too, or perhaps the 777 should have gone to Comair?
Does the company have to gauge the appetite of the pilot group at the time and then determine what they can get out of you? Why was 76 seat flying and below even on the menu?
Does the company have to gauge the appetite of the pilot group at the time and then determine what they can get out of you? Why was 76 seat flying and below even on the menu?
They also asked to get rid of virtually every work rule we had. They asked to terminate our pension and give us nothing in return. They asked for a 21% pay cut with no provision for any performance based return or any build back. They asked for lots of stuff.
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