Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-07-2010, 01:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
I agree finis. It isn't possible to negotiate every contract when Jupiter lines up with Mars and the economy is booming. Snapshots are good for some things, but not negotiating our contract out 5 years. We must make some financial assumptions that we will be profitable and sucessful. When were aren't, the company has ways of making us give back stuff in the middle of a contract, and they aren't shy about asking. Of course it would have to be a good reason, or we'll just say,"Sorry, but a contract is a contract." P.S. Are you one of those 500 pre-72 guys that didn't take the money and run leaving us holding an empty bag of money? If you are, then I salute you, although I hope you are thinking about retiring now.
You must be one of those single digit guys. Ha Sorry, just envious. LOL I'm just junior AND old. 
You must be one of those single digit guys. Ha Sorry, just envious. LOL I'm just junior AND old. 
04-07-2010, 01:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,907
THANKS! Somebody gets it. The point is we were forced into concessionary bargaining and got used to the idea of trading jobs for credits. Now that ethic lives on and I sure do not want to see it applied to the 100 seat jet issue.
Management sure seems to be biding its time to see what we might be willing to sell.
Management sure seems to be biding its time to see what we might be willing to sell.
But such a resolution was "received" (meaning put in the circular file).
Nu
04-07-2010, 01:57 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Alpha, with all due respect, you got your story exactly backwards. ALPA was arguing the scope changes were worth credits to offset the $325,000,000 in concessions management was demanding. ( For all readers, this is a cut and paste from an Arbitration Hearing and like our SLI Arbitration, the parties are taking advocacy positions. In other words, this is sausage being made and to the credit of our MEC our negotiator did ask to operate the 70 to 79 seat flying at mainline.)
For the NWA side it is easy to document in the ZipLines where the top of the page is titled BARGAINING and the bullet point is labeled CREDIT. On the Delta side the transcripts tell the story, what we see is haggling over how much credit should be received for job protections ALPA has agreed to surrender:
Alpha, at no time would I have any right to play the victim as you describe. I came to work here under a contract which has improved. You have my earnest sympathy for what Leo, Michelle and their crew did to our airline and to our pilots.
The point of my posts back and forth with you on our bargaining is to try to ensure we make a clean break with the mechanisms we used in concessionary bargaining. Let us leave scope out of IBB. With your assurance that scope concessions are off the table, I'll yield the floor.
Since I was at the bankruptcy hearings, every one of them, I don't have to look at the transcripts. What was mentioned was the economic benefits that DELTA says they would gain from the 79 seat jet issue (remember, Delta was asking for 200 79 seat jets, some people conveniently forget that little fact). It was never used as "bargaining credit". What happened at NWA in 2004 I have no idea.
Q There's still a disagreement between the two sides with regard to whether ALPA should be receiving any type of credit for agreeing to that -- for deletion of the minimum block hours; correct?
ALPA - Correct, there is value associated with that, and the company does not see that we should be credited with any value for agreeing to that.
Q And why does ALPA take the position that it should be credited with a value for agreeing to delete the minimum block hours?
ALPA - Well, the minimum block hours is basically the number of mainline block hours that Delta pilots are flying. And if there's a change to those minimum block hours, then the easy way to look at it is that those block hours will be flown somewhere else, and therefore, there's a value associated with the jobs of pilots that are flying those block hours.
Q Okay. And... why is it that ALPA believes that a credit should be provided to the pilots for agreeing to remove the plan percentage from the scope provision?
ALPA - The plan percentage is basically a balance between the flying the mainline pilots of Delta are doing relative to flying that's done at connection carriers and our other affiliate. And if we then remove this balance mechanism, it would allow more flying at a connection carrier versus less flying at the mainline. And once again, we had Delta pilot jobs that would be outsourced.
Q Now, let's go to item 3 on the term sheet under section 1. That's the minimum international flying designated flying levels?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA has agreed to remove that, but there's still a disagreement with regard to costing issues for that; correct?
ALPA That's correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA believes that a credit should be provided? ....
Q And when the company told you about this, it told you that it was a net number, that if -- for example, if $100 million worth of work were outsourced, work that had cost $100 million in-house, but it cost $50 million to be done outside, it was only giving the credit for the net, the $50 million improvement to the company?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Isn't that the way it was described to you?
ALPA - That the numbers are 300 million outsourced and a net of 150.
Q And when that work goes out from the company, real human beings lose their jobs; correct?
ALPA - Correct.
Q All right. Delta employees?
ALPA - As pilots would lose their jobs.
Q Well, how many pilots lost their jobs when the number of 70-seaters was increased flying at the Delta connection carrier in 2004?
ALPA There's 500 pilots furloughed.
ALPA - Correct, there is value associated with that, and the company does not see that we should be credited with any value for agreeing to that.
Q And why does ALPA take the position that it should be credited with a value for agreeing to delete the minimum block hours?
ALPA - Well, the minimum block hours is basically the number of mainline block hours that Delta pilots are flying. And if there's a change to those minimum block hours, then the easy way to look at it is that those block hours will be flown somewhere else, and therefore, there's a value associated with the jobs of pilots that are flying those block hours.
Q Okay. And... why is it that ALPA believes that a credit should be provided to the pilots for agreeing to remove the plan percentage from the scope provision?
ALPA - The plan percentage is basically a balance between the flying the mainline pilots of Delta are doing relative to flying that's done at connection carriers and our other affiliate. And if we then remove this balance mechanism, it would allow more flying at a connection carrier versus less flying at the mainline. And once again, we had Delta pilot jobs that would be outsourced.
Q Now, let's go to item 3 on the term sheet under section 1. That's the minimum international flying designated flying levels?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA has agreed to remove that, but there's still a disagreement with regard to costing issues for that; correct?
ALPA That's correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA believes that a credit should be provided? ....
Q And when the company told you about this, it told you that it was a net number, that if -- for example, if $100 million worth of work were outsourced, work that had cost $100 million in-house, but it cost $50 million to be done outside, it was only giving the credit for the net, the $50 million improvement to the company?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Isn't that the way it was described to you?
ALPA - That the numbers are 300 million outsourced and a net of 150.
Q And when that work goes out from the company, real human beings lose their jobs; correct?
ALPA - Correct.
Q All right. Delta employees?
ALPA - As pilots would lose their jobs.
Q Well, how many pilots lost their jobs when the number of 70-seaters was increased flying at the Delta connection carrier in 2004?
ALPA There's 500 pilots furloughed.
Now I love how you slip into the victim mentality. Oh, we sold you out for scope. Well how about my pension? What was that sold for? Overall, I have taken paycuts equal to an entire RJ crew. What was that sold for? You continue to try to point to the logic of the situation that you were screwed so others could get more. If you feel put upon by the last few years take a number.
The point of my posts back and forth with you on our bargaining is to try to ensure we make a clean break with the mechanisms we used in concessionary bargaining. Let us leave scope out of IBB. With your assurance that scope concessions are off the table, I'll yield the floor.
04-07-2010, 02:01 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
As far as contracts go: Scope should be free. NFC's should be free. Good medical benefits should be free. Our life insurance policy should be free. None of them are. I don't quite understand the arguments here. Other than folks joking about bigger bags of money, I don't think anyone will dispute the finite bag of money theory. The point is, we can't always negotiate when the bag is overflowing, but we must negotiate as if it will be at some point.
04-07-2010, 02:01 PM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,759
But - since you are on your 3rd year of longevity, you add one year to that, and use the 4th year line, so you get 125 hours in June.
Clear?
04-07-2010, 02:05 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Correct, everyone understand that.
To use a metaphor ... this guy comes and looks at buying my car. He says, that looks good, I'll give you $10,000 and I say I want $12,500. While we are negotiating he says, wow - your daughter sure is good looking. Throw her in and I'll pay you $20,000!
My point is that we should not be about the business of selling the kids. It is immoral.
To use a metaphor ... this guy comes and looks at buying my car. He says, that looks good, I'll give you $10,000 and I say I want $12,500. While we are negotiating he says, wow - your daughter sure is good looking. Throw her in and I'll pay you $20,000!
My point is that we should not be about the business of selling the kids. It is immoral.
04-07-2010, 02:07 PM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
As you well know, we've heard those assurances before.
Followed quickly by scope concessions.
I think this MEC now has the message.
But we still need to watch them like a hawk.
Thanks for posting that transcript excerpt.
04-07-2010, 02:11 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
I'm close to holding the 777, but close could still mean a long way off.No I wasn't an LSO, I was just a 1 Wire King. LOL The way I looked at it, if they didn't want me to use that wire, then they shouldn't have put it on the damn boat. (Tongue in cheek)
04-07-2010, 02:12 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: 7ERB
Posts: 142
United Airlines, US Airways in merger talks:
United Airlines, US Airways in merger talks: NYT
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- UAL Corp.'s (UAUA 20.44, +1.49, +7.86%) United Airlines and US Airways Group (LCC 8.61, +1.79, +26.25%) are in merger talks, the New York Times reported late Wednesday on its Web site, citing people briefed on the matter. A deal, which would dethrone Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL 14.50, +0.33, +2.33%) as the world's largest airline, could be announced in several weeks and could still fall apart, according to the Times. UAL shares rose 6% and US Airways shares jumped 13% in after-hours activity.
BIG jump in LCC stock after hours due to this tidbit....is it true...1 + 1 = 0.5!
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- UAL Corp.'s (UAUA 20.44, +1.49, +7.86%) United Airlines and US Airways Group (LCC 8.61, +1.79, +26.25%) are in merger talks, the New York Times reported late Wednesday on its Web site, citing people briefed on the matter. A deal, which would dethrone Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL 14.50, +0.33, +2.33%) as the world's largest airline, could be announced in several weeks and could still fall apart, according to the Times. UAL shares rose 6% and US Airways shares jumped 13% in after-hours activity.
BIG jump in LCC stock after hours due to this tidbit....is it true...1 + 1 = 0.5!
04-07-2010, 02:12 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
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