Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-06-2010, 04:28 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
[quote=iaflyer;790408]I disagree - the FAA has to get a cost benefit for everything they do. If the FAA starts requiring everyone to come in the night before - the first thing the pilot unions will require is the company to provide the hotel for them - because "it's FAA required". (even if not a commuter - who is to say a 2 hr drive through ATL traffic from the north side is relaxing)
I hear the above statement or one like it all the time. Certainly a commuter can show up more rested then a pilot who lives at home but for the most part that is not the case. The commuting pilot still has to get to the airport and faces all the same issues getting to the airport to start a commute as the non commuter pilot driving to work. We have lots of pilots commuting from ATL to NYC. They have the exact issues getting to the airport and then have to still get to NYC.
The other aspect of commuting that gets under played is the mental toll it takes on a pilot when the commute is not going well. It wears on you wondering if your going to make it or not. I have had many co pilots show up exhausted to start a international rotation. I have never had a pilot who lived in base show up that way. I am a commuter but I have no illusions its not stressful and fatiguing. I try hard to mitigate that by going the night before and getting a hotel or going early and getting a day room if there are likely to be any issues at all getting there. Many commuters do the same. Others simply don't care and show up wiped out. I believe the FAA is going to step in with major changes. I can't do anything about it. If it comes to pass I will sell my house and move to Atlanta. Moving is a fact of life in any job that pays over 6 figures. Its not unique to the airline industry.
I hear the above statement or one like it all the time. Certainly a commuter can show up more rested then a pilot who lives at home but for the most part that is not the case. The commuting pilot still has to get to the airport and faces all the same issues getting to the airport to start a commute as the non commuter pilot driving to work. We have lots of pilots commuting from ATL to NYC. They have the exact issues getting to the airport and then have to still get to NYC.
The other aspect of commuting that gets under played is the mental toll it takes on a pilot when the commute is not going well. It wears on you wondering if your going to make it or not. I have had many co pilots show up exhausted to start a international rotation. I have never had a pilot who lived in base show up that way. I am a commuter but I have no illusions its not stressful and fatiguing. I try hard to mitigate that by going the night before and getting a hotel or going early and getting a day room if there are likely to be any issues at all getting there. Many commuters do the same. Others simply don't care and show up wiped out. I believe the FAA is going to step in with major changes. I can't do anything about it. If it comes to pass I will sell my house and move to Atlanta. Moving is a fact of life in any job that pays over 6 figures. Its not unique to the airline industry.
04-06-2010, 04:40 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
What I was trying to get at is that NWA decided that the call in honest saved them money in that having to cancel a trip because a pilot is not there gets expensive. It was my understanding that call in honest worked well for the company. If a guy does not make it at DAL maybe they GS the trip and that cost the company more. Or if they cancel a full flt that cost the company money. I think the call in honest is a win win especially if it is a nonnegotiated policy. But maybe we can not get it here without giving up something ,DAL is a different animal.
At Delta if they don't have a reserve or will have to GS the trip its been my experience that they will positive space you to work. Once they even bought me a ticket on another airline to prevent a international cancelation so I don't think the statement above has much validity.
04-06-2010, 04:55 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
04-06-2010, 05:08 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
[/color]
Pineapple,
I have commuted Since 1988 and yes it was my choice. I chose to do so after the company promised that Sea base was there to stay and many guys sold homes in other bases, moved to Sea, and bought homes. 5 months later, base closes. I almost moved and was planning on it. Then and there I decided to live where I wanted because you never know what the airline is going to do. Over the years DAL and NWA have opened and closed many bases. For some commuting is not a choice. Over the life of the Call in honest policy at Nwa I used it 3 times. It ws a policy that the company had. It cost the pilot group nothing. It was not contractual in that the union gave up someting to get it. If they did I am not aware of it. I agree with Acl. It needs to be addressed. If not it will cost the company money not you. I don't want you to pay for it.(of the 3 times I used it, only once did a passenger get bumped.)
Pineapple,
I have commuted Since 1988 and yes it was my choice. I chose to do so after the company promised that Sea base was there to stay and many guys sold homes in other bases, moved to Sea, and bought homes. 5 months later, base closes. I almost moved and was planning on it. Then and there I decided to live where I wanted because you never know what the airline is going to do. Over the years DAL and NWA have opened and closed many bases. For some commuting is not a choice. Over the life of the Call in honest policy at Nwa I used it 3 times. It ws a policy that the company had. It cost the pilot group nothing. It was not contractual in that the union gave up someting to get it. If they did I am not aware of it. I agree with Acl. It needs to be addressed. If not it will cost the company money not you. I don't want you to pay for it.(of the 3 times I used it, only once did a passenger get bumped.)
04-06-2010, 05:15 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Personally I'd rather go to work with KC10 and PG than some of the Quixotic posers I see type here (not you clmp). The first step to success is knowing where you are. They do. A lot of people here seem to know where they want to go, but don't have a clue of where they're starting from....makes for a longer, more difficulty journey with a lower probability of completion!
I shall now bow to the cone of shame...
I shall now bow to the cone of shame...
Pronunciation: \kwik-ˈsä-tik\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Don Quixote
Date: 1718
1 : foolishly impractical especially in the pursuit of ideals; especially : marked by rash lofty romantic ideas or extravagantly chivalrous action
2 : capricious, unpredictable
Public School education Slow. ---
Pilot unity. Am I the only one that fears this in 2012?:
DALN: "The Delta South guys are going to end up... they're going to screw us over..."
DALS: "The Delta North guys will vote in anything that gives them.... they're going to screw us over..."
We could be more colorful but the point is, if we don't have unity, 2013 is going to suck. I have no solution, just seeing this on the horizon and Lord help us if whoever the other team is we are negotiating with in 2012 doesn't use that to their advantage.
---
Commuting Clause:
I would like to see a little more computer involvement in commuting. I think we should have to log in to Icrew and go to Personnel and click a check mark by something that acknowledges we will be commuters and relying on airline flights to get us to work.
Then each time we are scheduled for a trip then 24 hours prior we have to acknowledge what flights we plan on taking (let it cross check with travelnet on seat loads), whether we have the jumpseat, if its OAL or if driving is a backup plan.
If we arrive at the airport and we cannot get on the flight (outside of an OAL) then we simply call on the VRU or use our iphones and acknowledge unable to commute and the company will PD your trip up until they can POS you in or POS you in on the spot. Or maybe you can volunteer for 23K with a POS to work.
Now there is a paper trail, you've acknowledged that you are playing by the rules of the contract and they know where you are and you never have to talk to someone.
I'm just trying to think of something better than what we have that can alleviate the stress and issues with commuting IF the commuting rules don't change.
More power to commuters. As I go from holding lines on the 88, to not, to not being close, to possibly one day not holding ATL, as it is getting more and more senior, especially as guys bail on the NYC ER, I am all for commuters.
---
Iaflyer, nothing is more fun then driving in from north Atlanta to the airport. I have really 3 interstate options to get to work. I85 to the airport, I85 to 285E to the airport, I85 to 285W to the airport, GA400 to I85 to the airport, GA400 to 285E, GA400 to 285W, GA400 to I75 to I85... and all of those can come to a screaching hault with no warning on any given day and it is not uncommon for all of those to be blocked in the afternoon anyways.
And buckle your seat belts on those vans people. I never did but driving in to work the other morning I saw the bloody aftermath of what happens when an SUV is flipped and you're not wearing your seat belt.
04-06-2010, 05:19 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
04-06-2010, 05:25 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
deleted......
04-06-2010, 05:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
You guys could all have a discussion without the rancor and "holier than thou" attitudes if you think of these issues as a two step process. Negotiations actually accomplish both tasks simultaneously, but for argument's sake consider it as two distinct steps.
The first step is to determine the total budget allocated to the Delta pilot contract. One reason that I keep trying to get people to quit this endless political jockeying is that pilot unity is the only leverage that any negotiating committee has to wield at the table. That is why when I see people trying to whip up disunity in favor of their short term political power grabs, it makes me sick. Every time these stunts occur, it only takes power away from the negotiators and the MEC.
So, we now determine the total budget for the pilots. Management wants a small budget and we want a large budget. The size of that budget will be determined by several factors:
Competitive contracts throughout the industry (pattern bargaining)
Profitability of the company (yes it really matters, no matter how much anyone tries to delude themselves)
Pilot unity and organization
Despite the webboard wisdom, the size of the budget will not be affected by:
The size of the testicles of the MEC
Voting no, saying no, thinking no, being tough, toughness, courage, etc.
This is a business transaction, that is how the company views it, that is how the NMB views it and if you want to play in the universe of emotional outbursts (see APA) then you WILL get your clock cleaned. Badly.
So now we have gauged the economic environment and we have determined the pilot budget. Again, we try to make it as large as possible but in the end it will be a FIXED NUMBER. That is just reality. You can't just vote no and then have that number go higher. In fact in the last few years, everyone that has voted no has had to eat a smaller number in the end. The conventional wisdom of vote no and it gets better is almost always proven to be 180 out of the reality of the situation. As long as both sides make rational business evaluations of the negotiating environment, then the budget is actually bracketed into a very narrow range from the minute you start negotiations. That is also a fact that cannot be abridged by emotional arguments.
Now we have the budget. How are we going to spend that budget? During the last few years the Delta MEC has had less money in their budget, like everyone else. Having your company go bankrupt does that sort of thing. Facing this budget cutback, they decided to spend their budget this way:
Preserve work rules and the 12-14 day work month
1 for 3.5 was critical
ALV midrange was 77 which equates to a very reasonable initial load on schedules
Vacation should still be vacation and not a cash cow to sell back
The reserve system was not designed to be "commutable" so it is not a failure that the system is not commutable
Eliminate paid time for pilots sitting at home
This is where the 23K came from
The reserve system is specifically designed to minimize reserve guarantee paid - if you hit 67 hours each month then the system is doing what it was designed to do
Keep pay rates high
That is the traditional #1 goal for Delta pilots and unless things have changed a lot recently, it still is
Leverage equity from the company to provide compensation that does not come out of the P+L statement
Our bankruptcy claim netted Delta pilots $1.2 billion
The merger equity is probably now worth about $50K + per pilot
Frankly, we accomplished all of those goals and ended up with the best contract of all the Ch 11 carriers. (sorry north guys, but it was about $100 mm per year to bring you guys up to our contract, that is just a fact). Those priorities have set us up to continue to rebuild our contract like no other carrier has over the last three years. You can admire the bluster of UAL or AMR pilots but they have produced a goose egg over the last few years. At some points results have to matter.
Our next contract should contain a higher budget for Delta pilots. Inside of that budget the pilots through the MEC will decide how to spend that budget. If 23K recovery is too onerous, then they can spend money to let first officers sit at home with full pay. If commuters want reserve to be "commutable" then the MEC can spend money on that. If pilots want to let senior pilots on reserve sit at home and pass the pain on down the line, then they can spend money on that. If pilots want to move their pay rates higher then they can retain the productivity improvements of the last few years and put more money in pay.
There are no right or wrong answers here, there is just each pilots opinions of where the budget should be spent. It is not weakness to want higher pay rates and it is not stupid to want more time off. These are just individual preferences. You can call each other names all you want, but in the end, the pilots will express their preferences through the MEC and the MEC will develop a consensus on how to spend that budget.
If you can first get your head around the concept that the budget will be a fixed amount, then you can concentrate on deciding your priorities on how to spend that budget and avoid the emotional name calling that so often accompanies these discussions. Or, you can call each other names which is always very productive. By the way, you all stink.
The first step is to determine the total budget allocated to the Delta pilot contract. One reason that I keep trying to get people to quit this endless political jockeying is that pilot unity is the only leverage that any negotiating committee has to wield at the table. That is why when I see people trying to whip up disunity in favor of their short term political power grabs, it makes me sick. Every time these stunts occur, it only takes power away from the negotiators and the MEC.
So, we now determine the total budget for the pilots. Management wants a small budget and we want a large budget. The size of that budget will be determined by several factors:
Competitive contracts throughout the industry (pattern bargaining)
Profitability of the company (yes it really matters, no matter how much anyone tries to delude themselves)
Pilot unity and organization
Despite the webboard wisdom, the size of the budget will not be affected by:
The size of the testicles of the MEC
Voting no, saying no, thinking no, being tough, toughness, courage, etc.
This is a business transaction, that is how the company views it, that is how the NMB views it and if you want to play in the universe of emotional outbursts (see APA) then you WILL get your clock cleaned. Badly.
So now we have gauged the economic environment and we have determined the pilot budget. Again, we try to make it as large as possible but in the end it will be a FIXED NUMBER. That is just reality. You can't just vote no and then have that number go higher. In fact in the last few years, everyone that has voted no has had to eat a smaller number in the end. The conventional wisdom of vote no and it gets better is almost always proven to be 180 out of the reality of the situation. As long as both sides make rational business evaluations of the negotiating environment, then the budget is actually bracketed into a very narrow range from the minute you start negotiations. That is also a fact that cannot be abridged by emotional arguments.
Now we have the budget. How are we going to spend that budget? During the last few years the Delta MEC has had less money in their budget, like everyone else. Having your company go bankrupt does that sort of thing. Facing this budget cutback, they decided to spend their budget this way:
Preserve work rules and the 12-14 day work month
1 for 3.5 was critical
ALV midrange was 77 which equates to a very reasonable initial load on schedules
Vacation should still be vacation and not a cash cow to sell back
The reserve system was not designed to be "commutable" so it is not a failure that the system is not commutable
Eliminate paid time for pilots sitting at home
This is where the 23K came from
The reserve system is specifically designed to minimize reserve guarantee paid - if you hit 67 hours each month then the system is doing what it was designed to do
Keep pay rates high
That is the traditional #1 goal for Delta pilots and unless things have changed a lot recently, it still is
Leverage equity from the company to provide compensation that does not come out of the P+L statement
Our bankruptcy claim netted Delta pilots $1.2 billion
The merger equity is probably now worth about $50K + per pilot
Frankly, we accomplished all of those goals and ended up with the best contract of all the Ch 11 carriers. (sorry north guys, but it was about $100 mm per year to bring you guys up to our contract, that is just a fact). Those priorities have set us up to continue to rebuild our contract like no other carrier has over the last three years. You can admire the bluster of UAL or AMR pilots but they have produced a goose egg over the last few years. At some points results have to matter.
Our next contract should contain a higher budget for Delta pilots. Inside of that budget the pilots through the MEC will decide how to spend that budget. If 23K recovery is too onerous, then they can spend money to let first officers sit at home with full pay. If commuters want reserve to be "commutable" then the MEC can spend money on that. If pilots want to let senior pilots on reserve sit at home and pass the pain on down the line, then they can spend money on that. If pilots want to move their pay rates higher then they can retain the productivity improvements of the last few years and put more money in pay.
There are no right or wrong answers here, there is just each pilots opinions of where the budget should be spent. It is not weakness to want higher pay rates and it is not stupid to want more time off. These are just individual preferences. You can call each other names all you want, but in the end, the pilots will express their preferences through the MEC and the MEC will develop a consensus on how to spend that budget.
If you can first get your head around the concept that the budget will be a fixed amount, then you can concentrate on deciding your priorities on how to spend that budget and avoid the emotional name calling that so often accompanies these discussions. Or, you can call each other names which is always very productive. By the way, you all stink.
04-06-2010, 05:30 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
04-06-2010, 05:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
I will dispute it. We aren't paid enough to move everytime DAL decides to close a base, so when they DO close our bases, it is impractical to move to one. I really think PG is trying to be funny... although I think this line fails miserably... and if he isn't, well... let's just say I would laugh at him if he lost a lot of money in the market.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
