Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-05-2010, 02:11 PM
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The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
If I remember correctly Giambusso was hired in 1978. These discussions that you reference took place in 2000. Giambusso wasn't a military pilot for 22 years.
I also remember that during Delta's strike prep for Contract 2000 that the only two airlines that refused to sign a Mutual Assistance Protocol were ASA and Comair. Even the non-union Skywest pilots group signed it. Every international airline signed it. That was in February, 2001, prior to the Comair strike.
Bob Arnold saw the error of his ways and corrected his course later that year. JC Lawson never did. ASA grew. CMR shrank.
Still, it's water under the bridge. JC Lawson hasn't been MEC Chair at CMR since 2006. Holding grudges only holds us all back. NWA got its great start in Japan with a 1952 bilateral treaty, only 7 years after the US nuked that country. We shouldn't let the past restrict our future.
04-05-2010, 02:12 PM
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I was at the meeting. I heard Lawson state that ALPA merger policy was all they would except unless a prenup was DOH. Seemed pretty clear to me what his demands were. I never heard CG express what you state. Not saying it did not happen but I never heard him make those kind of statements. There was a surprising amount of MEC support to try and convince the company to merge the lists. I don't think however we would have ever convinced the company to due that for many reasons short of massive concessions in every other area of the contract and management retaining the ability to split off Comair and ASA for sale if they desired.
Your point about preserving ASA and Comair as saleable assets is absolutely correct.
You make it sound a little as though some type A political grandstanding doomed a unity effort which would have benefited many pilots. (which is how I view what you describe.. and yes, I could see that happening) Is that your impression? Or, was it something which had so many structural problems that it would never have gotten off the ground absent a max effort which our union was unwilling to make?
As that letter typifies, both Arnold and Lawson could be type A orifices. But, if true, was that any reason to fire the starter's pistol on all the outsourcing?
With sincere humility, thank you for your perspectives.
04-05-2010, 02:17 PM
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That is close to being true, but not exactly. The Delta MEC never wanted the ASA or Comair pilots and preemptively made sure changes were made to ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws to change the definitions which trigger the union's longstanding merger and fragmentation policy. Specifically, the definition of "operational integration" was removed.
The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
Thus rebuked, the ASA and Comair pilots tried to push the issue through ALPA national. Being somewhat unsophisticated at the game on this level they followed the procedures laid out by our union like a sequential check list. One of those procedures was to make the application WITHOUT presupposing a seniority outcome.
In simple terms the union was to decide IF there was going to be a merger before the players put forward their seniority integration methodologies.
In the crew room briefings the question of SLI came up. The ASA & Comair pilots were both told (I was there as an ASA pilot) that "ALPA seniority integration recognizes the status quo ... that means lists are most commonly integrated by paycheck or equipment, in either case that would mean a STAPLE."
On the other side of the concourse Delta pilots were being told ASA & Comair pilots were demanding "Date of Hire." That statement was untrue, but it helped politically galvanize the Delta pilots by giving them a common enemy.
The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
Thus rebuked, the ASA and Comair pilots tried to push the issue through ALPA national. Being somewhat unsophisticated at the game on this level they followed the procedures laid out by our union like a sequential check list. One of those procedures was to make the application WITHOUT presupposing a seniority outcome.
In simple terms the union was to decide IF there was going to be a merger before the players put forward their seniority integration methodologies.
In the crew room briefings the question of SLI came up. The ASA & Comair pilots were both told (I was there as an ASA pilot) that "ALPA seniority integration recognizes the status quo ... that means lists are most commonly integrated by paycheck or equipment, in either case that would mean a STAPLE."
On the other side of the concourse Delta pilots were being told ASA & Comair pilots were demanding "Date of Hire." That statement was untrue, but it helped politically galvanize the Delta pilots by giving them a common enemy.
There is two sides to every story and everything you say may indeed be true but, and this is a big but, COMAIR chose to use furloughed DAL pilots for leverage. Pilots who had recently paid part of their paychecks to support COMAIR when they were on strike in 2000. Pilots who helped ensure DAL did not did add additional city parings on COMAIR routes during the strike. Meanwhile JC Lawson and his friends had no problem accepting DAL pilot $. ASA choose the high road - good for them! ASA and COMAIR both had a choice and to paraphrase that dude in the third Indian Jones movie "COMAIR chose poorly and ASA chose wisely."
Fianlly - I don't think this should reflect badly on any COMAIR hired pilot subsequently to this sad affair.
Scoop
04-05-2010, 02:20 PM
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What had been Comair flying was being outsourced to other members of the DCI portfolio. Comair was afraid of exactly what did happen to them. Today they are a shadow of what they used to be. Lawson was trying to protect the job security and career progression of his pilots.
After all Delta wanted Lawson to negotiate something with his management, Lawson wanted some help in return.
Was he a jerk - sure. Was he offensive - absolutely. Was he trying to get the Delta pilots to negotiate - yes.
At ASA we welcomed our Delta brothers with open arms. We figured it was better to build bridges. Further - we told him it was wrong to use furloughed pilots as bargaining chips.
While Lawson shot us in the back on several occasions and there IS bad blood, he was trying to protect his pilots - that was his job.
Just because I understand what he was doing does not mean I condone it. But it is pretty easy to see what has happened to that airline under Delta's stewardship.
After all Delta wanted Lawson to negotiate something with his management, Lawson wanted some help in return.
Was he a jerk - sure. Was he offensive - absolutely. Was he trying to get the Delta pilots to negotiate - yes.
At ASA we welcomed our Delta brothers with open arms. We figured it was better to build bridges. Further - we told him it was wrong to use furloughed pilots as bargaining chips.
While Lawson shot us in the back on several occasions and there IS bad blood, he was trying to protect his pilots - that was his job.
Just because I understand what he was doing does not mean I condone it. But it is pretty easy to see what has happened to that airline under Delta's stewardship.
04-05-2010, 02:23 PM
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The DFW CP?
04-05-2010, 02:30 PM
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What part? I'm quoting from what Bob Arnold told us.
He was a military pilot BEFORE he was an ALPA member, that was his point
That's right. Bob's objection was that the Delta MEC's bargaining agenda was going to harm his pilots and he said "I can't support that." Again, Bob wanted to bind Delta's RJ's. ALPA said only Delta pilots could do that, so he wanted their help. He wanted reciprocity.Great! How much help was the student Counsel over at SkyWest? BTW these are the same non-union pilots who took 29 of ASA's airplanes while ASA was in negotiations (imagine Air France taking Delta's entire 777 and 747 fleets for an apple to apples comparison) ... the same problem Lawson was trying to get help with.
Absolutely agreed. But, there is a lot of disinformation about how our union got to be the fractured mess that it is. We want our MEC to fight for us, but some of us hold grudges when we see other MEC's fighting for their pilots.
IMHO it is smart to consider these guys perspectives. After all, Delta bought their airlines, stripped their code and outsourced it to their competitors. It wasn't ALPA that did that, but we, as a union, should at least understand and learn from what happened.
IMHO it is smart to consider these guys perspectives. After all, Delta bought their airlines, stripped their code and outsourced it to their competitors. It wasn't ALPA that did that, but we, as a union, should at least understand and learn from what happened.
04-05-2010, 02:31 PM
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[quote=Scoop;790324]Bar,
There is two sides to every story and everything you say may indeed be true but, and this is a big but, COMAIR chose to use furloughed DAL pilots for leverage. Pilots who had recently paid part of their paychecks to support COMAIR when they were on strike in 2000. Pilots who helped ensure DAL did not did add additional city parings on COMAIR routes during the strike. Meanwhile JC Lawson and his friends had no problem accepting DAL pilot $. ASA choose the high road - good for them! ASA and COMAIR both had a choice and to paraphrase that dude in the third Indian Jones movie "COMAIR chose poorly and ASA chose wisely."
Fianlly - I don't think this should reflect badly on any COMAIR hired pilot subsequently to this sad affair.
Scoop, I forgot about that issue. I remember when the CA guys were up in arms falsely accusing DAL pilots of flying their routes with extra sections and so forth. I'm sorry, but I'm still holding a grudge. These guys were completely out of line. As David Banner (Hulk) would have said, "You won't like me when I'm angry."
There is two sides to every story and everything you say may indeed be true but, and this is a big but, COMAIR chose to use furloughed DAL pilots for leverage. Pilots who had recently paid part of their paychecks to support COMAIR when they were on strike in 2000. Pilots who helped ensure DAL did not did add additional city parings on COMAIR routes during the strike. Meanwhile JC Lawson and his friends had no problem accepting DAL pilot $. ASA choose the high road - good for them! ASA and COMAIR both had a choice and to paraphrase that dude in the third Indian Jones movie "COMAIR chose poorly and ASA chose wisely."
Fianlly - I don't think this should reflect badly on any COMAIR hired pilot subsequently to this sad affair.
Scoop, I forgot about that issue. I remember when the CA guys were up in arms falsely accusing DAL pilots of flying their routes with extra sections and so forth. I'm sorry, but I'm still holding a grudge. These guys were completely out of line. As David Banner (Hulk) would have said, "You won't like me when I'm angry."
04-05-2010, 02:32 PM
Can't abide NAI
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Bar,
There is two sides to every story and everything you say may indeed be true but, and this is a big but, COMAIR chose to use furloughed DAL pilots for leverage. Pilots who had recently paid part of their paychecks to support COMAIR when they were on strike in 2000. Pilots who helped ensure DAL did not did add additional city parings on COMAIR routes during the strike. Meanwhile JC Lawson and his friends had no problem accepting DAL pilot $. ASA choose the high road - good for them! ASA and COMAIR both had a choice and to paraphrase that dude in the third Indian Jones movie "COMAIR chose poorly and ASA chose wisely."
Fianlly - I don't think this should reflect badly on any COMAIR hired pilot subsequently to this sad affair.
Scoop
There is two sides to every story and everything you say may indeed be true but, and this is a big but, COMAIR chose to use furloughed DAL pilots for leverage. Pilots who had recently paid part of their paychecks to support COMAIR when they were on strike in 2000. Pilots who helped ensure DAL did not did add additional city parings on COMAIR routes during the strike. Meanwhile JC Lawson and his friends had no problem accepting DAL pilot $. ASA choose the high road - good for them! ASA and COMAIR both had a choice and to paraphrase that dude in the third Indian Jones movie "COMAIR chose poorly and ASA chose wisely."
Fianlly - I don't think this should reflect badly on any COMAIR hired pilot subsequently to this sad affair.
Scoop
04-05-2010, 02:33 PM
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Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
04-05-2010, 02:40 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
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Posts: 602
Can I get a topic going or what? Yeeeeehaw:
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