Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-05-2010, 12:43 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: SLC ERB
Posts: 467
Were you in the St Patrick's day class? There was indeed one Comair pilot in that that (our?) class. There were a bunch of ASA and ExpressJet pilots - but only one Comair.
04-05-2010, 12:55 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
They are that short sited. Right after Delta completed the purchase of Comair and ASA there was a push on within the Delta MEC to attempt to get the company to merge the seniority lists. They held a meeting with Comair and ASA to discuss trying to establish a method to work on this goal. The meeting did not go well and the concept died at Delta. Lawson and another individual who's name I forget made it quite clear what their DEMANDS were. The only exceptable solution for them was that we push for a immediate merger of the lists and it be done by ALPA merger policy and they let it be known that they viewed that as DOH and that was what they would be asking for. No prenuptial agreement would be considered by them other then DOH. That was the end of support from the Delta MEC.
The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
Thus rebuked, the ASA and Comair pilots tried to push the issue through ALPA national. Being somewhat unsophisticated at the game on this level they followed the procedures laid out by our union like a sequential check list. One of those procedures was to make the application WITHOUT presupposing a seniority outcome.
In simple terms the union was to decide IF there was going to be a merger before the players put forward their seniority integration methodologies.
In the crew room briefings the question of SLI came up. The ASA & Comair pilots were both told (I was there as an ASA pilot) that "ALPA seniority integration recognizes the status quo ... that means lists are most commonly integrated by paycheck or equipment, in either case that would mean a STAPLE."
On the other side of the concourse Delta pilots were being told ASA & Comair pilots were demanding "Date of Hire." That statement was untrue, but it helped politically galvanize the Delta pilots by giving them a common enemy.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-05-2010 at 01:07 PM.
04-05-2010, 01:05 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,105
04-05-2010, 01:12 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It would be nice to unwind the clock....
Flying gone and opportunities missed either way.
Flying gone and opportunities missed either way.
04-05-2010, 01:14 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Bar,
I agree that we should have gone to Delta Management because we owned Comair and ASA........that being said, for Lawson to demand the things he did in that letter was a slap in the face to every Delta Pilot.
Denny
I agree that we should have gone to Delta Management because we owned Comair and ASA........that being said, for Lawson to demand the things he did in that letter was a slap in the face to every Delta Pilot.
Denny
04-05-2010, 01:17 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Denny;
Agreed, it was divisive. I still effects a great many things today.
Agreed, it was divisive. I still effects a great many things today.
04-05-2010, 01:17 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
That is close to being true, but not exactly. The Delta MEC never wanted the ASA or Comair pilots and preemptively made sure changes were made to ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws to change the definitions which trigger the union's longstanding merger and fragmentation policy. Specifically, the definition of "operational integration" was removed.
The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
Thus rebuked, the ASA and Comair pilots tried to push the issue through ALPA national. Being somewhat unsophisticated at the game on this level they followed the procedures laid out by our union like a sequential check list. One of those procedures was to make the application WITHOUT presupposing a seniority outcome.
In simple terms the union was to decide IF there was going to be a merger before the players put forward their seniority integration methodologies.
In the crew room briefings the question of SLI came up. The ASA & Comair pilots were both told (I was there as an ASA pilot) that "ALPA seniority integration recognizes the status quo ... that means lists are most commonly integrated by paycheck or equipment, in either case that would mean a STAPLE."
On the other side of the concourse Delta pilots were being told ASA & Comair pilots were demanding "Date of Hire." That statement was untrue, but it helped politically galvanize the Delta pilots by giving them a common enemy.
The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
Thus rebuked, the ASA and Comair pilots tried to push the issue through ALPA national. Being somewhat unsophisticated at the game on this level they followed the procedures laid out by our union like a sequential check list. One of those procedures was to make the application WITHOUT presupposing a seniority outcome.
In simple terms the union was to decide IF there was going to be a merger before the players put forward their seniority integration methodologies.
In the crew room briefings the question of SLI came up. The ASA & Comair pilots were both told (I was there as an ASA pilot) that "ALPA seniority integration recognizes the status quo ... that means lists are most commonly integrated by paycheck or equipment, in either case that would mean a STAPLE."
On the other side of the concourse Delta pilots were being told ASA & Comair pilots were demanding "Date of Hire." That statement was untrue, but it helped politically galvanize the Delta pilots by giving them a common enemy.
04-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
After all Delta wanted Lawson to negotiate something with his management, Lawson wanted some help in return.
Was he a jerk - sure. Was he offensive - absolutely. Was he trying to get the Delta pilots to negotiate - yes.
At ASA we welcomed our Delta brothers with open arms. We figured it was better to build bridges. Further - we told him it was wrong to use furloughed pilots as bargaining chips.
While Lawson shot us in the back on several occasions and there IS bad blood, he was trying to protect his pilots - that was his job.
Just because I understand what he was doing does not mean I condone it. But it is pretty easy to see what has happened to that airline under Delta's stewardship.
04-05-2010, 01:22 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
That is close to being true, but not exactly. The Delta MEC never wanted the ASA or Comair pilots and preemptively made sure changes were made to ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws to change the definitions which trigger the union's longstanding merger and fragmentation policy. Specifically, the definition of "operational integration" was removed.
The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
Thus rebuked, the ASA and Comair pilots tried to push the issue through ALPA national. Being somewhat unsophisticated at the game on this level they followed the procedures laid out by our union like a sequential check list. One of those procedures was to make the application WITHOUT presupposing a seniority outcome.
In simple terms the union was to decide IF there was going to be a merger before the players put forward their seniority integration methodologies.
In the crew room briefings the question of SLI came up. The ASA & Comair pilots were both told (I was there as an ASA pilot) that "ALPA seniority integration recognizes the status quo ... that means lists are most commonly integrated by paycheck or equipment, in either case that would mean a STAPLE."
On the other side of the concourse Delta pilots were being told ASA & Comair pilots were demanding "Date of Hire." That statement was untrue, but it helped politically galvanize the Delta pilots by giving them a common enemy.
The reasons Giambusso cited were that if ASA & Comair were merged a military pilot would have a choice of flying an RJ for Delta, or a real airplane at American. By merging our carriers Delta would not be as attractive to military pilots. When asked if he was speaking on behalf of our union, or on the behalf of future military pilots, Giambusso stated he had been a military pilot for many more years than he had been an ALPA member. He also made comments about the education, experience level and belief that many ASA pilots had DUI's. In any event, ASA & Comair pilots were not former military pilots and generally not up to Delta's standards.
Thus rebuked, the ASA and Comair pilots tried to push the issue through ALPA national. Being somewhat unsophisticated at the game on this level they followed the procedures laid out by our union like a sequential check list. One of those procedures was to make the application WITHOUT presupposing a seniority outcome.
In simple terms the union was to decide IF there was going to be a merger before the players put forward their seniority integration methodologies.
In the crew room briefings the question of SLI came up. The ASA & Comair pilots were both told (I was there as an ASA pilot) that "ALPA seniority integration recognizes the status quo ... that means lists are most commonly integrated by paycheck or equipment, in either case that would mean a STAPLE."
On the other side of the concourse Delta pilots were being told ASA & Comair pilots were demanding "Date of Hire." That statement was untrue, but it helped politically galvanize the Delta pilots by giving them a common enemy.
04-05-2010, 01:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
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