Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-04-2010, 06:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
I just did my first domestic trip since IOE 2 years ago. LGA-ATL-LAS, LAS-ATL-MCO, MCO-ATL-LGA and I was exhausted when I got home. So, I can kinda see the angst by the DTW pilots with their bid package. DAL uses a vendor called Carmen that builds our trips legally and efficiently to the Company's benefit. A lot of our trips suck such as the infamous JFK-BOG all-nighter down and all-nighter back 16 hours later. It took me 2 days to recover from that-most sicked out trip in the bid package. Which means if the DTW trips are that bad-just look at the sick out rates on them in 2-3 months and VOILA! they will change.
04-04-2010, 06:15 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
The one thing I'm concerned about is our scheduling section. The union says that we saved our work rules, but not as far as FO's with 23k or reserve. We rolled over on a bunch of scheduling issues that did not affect the negotiators!!! That is why we don't need pilots negotiating for us!!! We need @#$%&*! pro's doing the negotiating for us. Out of base white slips was a no cost item that benefited everybody but the schedulers.
04-04-2010, 06:28 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Hey PatBuzz,
The difference is that your old company has made crappy trips a way of life for a long time. Our old company did it up right particularly on the 75. See PatBuzz, we ex NWA guys have a unique perspective. Unlike you we have seen both sides and let me tell you.........you're always quick to say move on, I'm quick to say let's fix it. Maybe you should "harmonize" your way of thinking to the former NWA pilots way of thinking. We are not much on rolling over. So maybe it's time for you to move on.
The difference is that your old company has made crappy trips a way of life for a long time. Our old company did it up right particularly on the 75. See PatBuzz, we ex NWA guys have a unique perspective. Unlike you we have seen both sides and let me tell you.........you're always quick to say move on, I'm quick to say let's fix it. Maybe you should "harmonize" your way of thinking to the former NWA pilots way of thinking. We are not much on rolling over. So maybe it's time for you to move on.
There is no moving on, there is no solution. This is the network that management has set up and they need 757's to feed giganto-hub. Guess what, that means shuttling down to FL and back or Savannah or Augusta or any number of smaller cities. That is how you get to be the largest operator of 757's in the world. And don't forget, they pay the same as your A-330's did before the merger. I guess we didn't roll over on that.
As for the whining, I can tell you that in CVG we are happy to fly whatever comes our way. Maybe they should close the DTW 757/7ER category and move the time to CVG. You can be sure we won't whine about that. You guys don't want your little world to change, but it is changing. So is ours. So yeah, get over it.
04-04-2010, 06:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,233
Life,
You nailed it right on the head. My disdain is not toward any Delta pilot be it north or south. There are things like construction of trips, commuting policy, 23k recovery and numerous other items that need to be addressed. The apologist crowd on here loves to make it a north/south thing because they have some type of love affair with DELTA. They get offended if you say anything that is not the company line. For me it's about improving on what I already have. That's not complaining, that's setting high standards. Hope you get to the position you want sooner than later.
You nailed it right on the head. My disdain is not toward any Delta pilot be it north or south. There are things like construction of trips, commuting policy, 23k recovery and numerous other items that need to be addressed. The apologist crowd on here loves to make it a north/south thing because they have some type of love affair with DELTA. They get offended if you say anything that is not the company line. For me it's about improving on what I already have. That's not complaining, that's setting high standards. Hope you get to the position you want sooner than later.
You are right - I am happy to have a job, but I will fight for high standards no matter how unreasonable they sound to exacs or press or anyone else.
When they (or we, ourselves) divide our own pilot group and let them conquer - it is a kindergarten, not industry leading airline.
We got to be angry for 2012 and with reason and thoughtfulness channel it in the right direction.
04-04-2010, 06:46 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Enuff, you're right, you said nothing about DALS pilots but that misses the point.
To me there are 2 ways to handle this:
1)
I was offering a warning, not a threat. You've been doing this a long time, I get it, but I've also been doing this long enough. 
When you go after Delta you go after DALS guys whether they're koolaid drinkers or not. You fit yourself right into a your side sucks fight and if you're not looking for it then you're going to have to be explaining what you meant longer than you would've if you posted this:
2)
Most will chime right in. If you didn't mention DTW 755 then many would be thinking you were talking about their category because hence, there are a lot of things DALS pilots want improved too. The ATL 767 guys would be asking you to buy a pitchfork and a torch and join with them.
If a DALS pilot says something like "you're taking our flying!" Then respond, "I don't want to take your flying anymore than you want me to take it!"
Nobody will argue. Nobody. Your point will be made. Non DTW 755 guys will now realize you're getting screwed too and like you, there is nothing they can do about it.
There is a new matrix like ninja movie preview I saw for the Last Air Bender. I said, hey, thats me, I bend air. Loudly.
---
Now, Enuff, getting back to your point, enlighten us. What was DTW 755 like before and what is it now? I looked at your bid package. Its not big. Was it bigger? Longer trips or shorter trips? More NRT or just more commutable?
To me there are 2 ways to handle this:
1)
Well for all of us DTW 75 guys the nightmare has begun. What was once a great category, doing great trips has been ruined by our friends at Mecca south. Thanks Delta for the horrendous May trips and for converting DTW to a satellite base for ATL, with it's inadequate facilities, over saturation and lousy spring and summer weather........ can't wait.
When you go after Delta you go after DALS guys whether they're koolaid drinkers or not. You fit yourself right into a your side sucks fight and if you're not looking for it then you're going to have to be explaining what you meant longer than you would've if you posted this:
2)
If a DALS pilot says something like "you're taking our flying!" Then respond, "I don't want to take your flying anymore than you want me to take it!"
Nobody will argue. Nobody. Your point will be made. Non DTW 755 guys will now realize you're getting screwed too and like you, there is nothing they can do about it.
Whatever an airbender is,
It goes both ways ace. I've been doing this job for a looooong time, I'm not intimidated by threats. There are some effed up things around here that need to be fixed. You move on. Oh, and most importantly read my original post. I never blamed any of my Delta counterparts just the new company we both work for.
It goes both ways ace. I've been doing this job for a looooong time, I'm not intimidated by threats. There are some effed up things around here that need to be fixed. You move on. Oh, and most importantly read my original post. I never blamed any of my Delta counterparts just the new company we both work for.
---
Now, Enuff, getting back to your point, enlighten us. What was DTW 755 like before and what is it now? I looked at your bid package. Its not big. Was it bigger? Longer trips or shorter trips? More NRT or just more commutable?
04-04-2010, 06:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
The one thing I'm concerned about is our scheduling section. The union says that we saved our work rules, but not as far as FO's with 23k or reserve. We rolled over on a bunch of scheduling issues that did not affect the negotiators!!! That is why we don't need pilots negotiating for us!!! We need @#$%&*! pro's doing the negotiating for us. Out of base white slips was a no cost item that benefited everybody but the schedulers.
04-04-2010, 06:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
Good points, although I disagree with your contention that they cost much to get, especially in modern bargaining which ALPA uses to facilitate management's outsourcing schemes. They serve as a cheap insurance policy (with a fly by night underwriter) in order to execute a sale of our member's jobs.
No furlough clauses are most often tied to agreements which loosen scope. Politically "no furlough" clauses provide cover for the sale of junior pilots jobs and upgrade potential. When junior pilots complain, they receive assurances that their job is still protected. Based on these happy talk promises, the sheeple vote yes with a clear conscience.
As you well point out (and as Sailing concurs) these job protection devices often are not designed for economic stresses and they commonly fail. While at the time they are sold as "job protection" when they fail, the tune changes to the need to help management load shed when the company is under duress. Just as we hear "our scope works by not working" (my former Rep's quote in response to a question on the Compass flow down).
So, I'd only disagree with you on a minor point. No Furlough Clauses cost nothing, are worth about as much and come in a bottle labeled "political eyewash."
I agree with Sailing that our approach to layered economic penalties is smart and more effective than blanket assurances.
In light of the trend data, our MEC did likely save folks like me a furlough (which would have looked bad given their support for the merger). I appreciate their work.
IMHO Job Protection should focus on scope. Since the jets currently flown by Compass and Republic would have little trouble replacing your 737 (I even see them carrying more than 100 folks out of UIO) I'd encourage you to join our merry minority of scope fanatics intent on keeping our jobs and careers.
No furlough clauses are most often tied to agreements which loosen scope. Politically "no furlough" clauses provide cover for the sale of junior pilots jobs and upgrade potential. When junior pilots complain, they receive assurances that their job is still protected. Based on these happy talk promises, the sheeple vote yes with a clear conscience.
As you well point out (and as Sailing concurs) these job protection devices often are not designed for economic stresses and they commonly fail. While at the time they are sold as "job protection" when they fail, the tune changes to the need to help management load shed when the company is under duress. Just as we hear "our scope works by not working" (my former Rep's quote in response to a question on the Compass flow down).
So, I'd only disagree with you on a minor point. No Furlough Clauses cost nothing, are worth about as much and come in a bottle labeled "political eyewash."
I agree with Sailing that our approach to layered economic penalties is smart and more effective than blanket assurances.
In light of the trend data, our MEC did likely save folks like me a furlough (which would have looked bad given their support for the merger). I appreciate their work.
IMHO Job Protection should focus on scope. Since the jets currently flown by Compass and Republic would have little trouble replacing your 737 (I even see them carrying more than 100 folks out of UIO) I'd encourage you to join our merry minority of scope fanatics intent on keeping our jobs and careers.
04-04-2010, 06:58 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Life,
You nailed it right on the head. My disdain is not toward any Delta pilot be it north or south. There are things like construction of trips, commuting policy, 23k recovery and numerous other items that need to be addressed. The apologist crowd on here loves to make it a north/south thing because they have some type of love affair with DELTA. They get offended if you say anything that is not the company line. For me it's about improving on what I already have. That's not complaining, that's setting high standards. Hope you get to the position you want sooner than later.
You nailed it right on the head. My disdain is not toward any Delta pilot be it north or south. There are things like construction of trips, commuting policy, 23k recovery and numerous other items that need to be addressed. The apologist crowd on here loves to make it a north/south thing because they have some type of love affair with DELTA. They get offended if you say anything that is not the company line. For me it's about improving on what I already have. That's not complaining, that's setting high standards. Hope you get to the position you want sooner than later.
Heck, you hear a lot of guys rip previous management teams and the Delta way of doing things but they still love Delta, why the disconnect? Because they see Delta as their airline, not managements.
That is strictly a imho, and fwiw, the quicker we become the great melting pot the better 2012 will be.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 04-04-2010 at 07:25 AM.
04-04-2010, 07:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
I am somewhat surprised at some statements here about past no furlough clauses. I never heard any one on contract road shows, mec meetings, contract handouts state we had a ironclad no furlough clause from any contract. All anyone had to do was read the contract to understand there was no intent for a iron clad clause. Force Majure as a concept was carefully explained at the road show I attended on the 01 contract. Most would agree 11 Sep was a FM event. The arbitrator agreed it was a FM event. The second round of furloughs were purely economic and the arbitrator ruled in our favor. The contract functioned as it was written.
The first time we heard of "Force de manure" as we so affectionately like to call it, we were taken by surprise. DALPA has since made sure everyone is aware of this wild card clause.
One of my Navy buddies that got hired several years after me was furloughed. I recall the anticipation of the furlough and hoping the NFC would protect him. It didn't. It took several months of fighting between DALPA and management before the furloughs started happening. DALPA wanted to see the books, and managment refused. etc, etc. Understandably, he instantly turned from a company man, to a company hater. He still brings it up every now and then. It was a very financially difficult time for him and his family. So, although I have never been furloughed, I at least understand the hardships of such and agree that an agreement is necessary to prevent long term furloughs. Did you know that some Pan Am guys were furloughed for over 17 years? I also remember flying with lots of FO's after they came back from furlough. Lots of interesting stories of how each spent their time.
All for now, Waves
04-04-2010, 07:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: SLC 767ER Captain
Posts: 602
I heard a rumor that several months ago, a poll was taken from the DAL N guys asking them what they wanted in our next contract. The majority of focus was on more pay. Go DAL N yeah!!! That's what I'm talkin about. CAL plus $1? I don't think so. How about 2004 pay plus $15? And we'll take one of those free No Furlough Clauses too, LOL
On a side note: Wanna know what kind of pax we're carrying these days? My FA wife flying flight 545 ATL-CUN. Pax says to her,"Can I go up to first class and fart and then come back here?" No lie. Happened yesterday. Apparently we need to add a "No Class" section to our aircraft.
Don't want to hear you guys complaining about ATL weather.
It snowed 5 inches again here last night and it's supposed to be brewing up an even bigger storm. Happy Easter to All.
LOLOn a side note: Wanna know what kind of pax we're carrying these days? My FA wife flying flight 545 ATL-CUN. Pax says to her,"Can I go up to first class and fart and then come back here?" No lie. Happened yesterday. Apparently we need to add a "No Class" section to our aircraft.
Don't want to hear you guys complaining about ATL weather.
It snowed 5 inches again here last night and it's supposed to be brewing up an even bigger storm. Happy Easter to All.
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