Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-28-2010, 05:20 PM
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
As several have pointed out to me as a new guy here, I have apparently unintentionally dredged up the unwelcome past. I have tried to abandon this subject, but I keep getting hit with replies.
I will agree with you what the MEC and NC jobs were, but it was the way it was handled by the NW MEC and NC which I beleive was partially dishonest, misleading, and deplorable. Without writting a book here and dredging up more ugliness, I will leave it at that. Or at least try to. I can elaborate, but I prefer not to. The bottom line is that the final SLI was for the most part a fair and balanced agreement of which I think we can all live with. You're entitled to your opinion, but as it has been pointed out by both of us, it is a moot one. We agree here, and this is another DAL-N guy who has had nothing but pleasant experiences with DAL-S guys.
My veiw point about our fleet should not necessarily be misconstrued as pessimism. Although we now have a NWA's CEO, in the past DAL has always been very conservative regarding buying aircraft or expanding service. Sometimes this has proved to be a good decision, and sometimes not so good. The fact is, DAL has nearly always been the last one on the block to upgrade the fleet or expand. Contrarily, DAL has been a leader in buying regionals and outsourcing jobs to regionals. So forgive me if I seem pessimistic. True, but DAL has recently been selling/shedding regional partners. They have realized the damage caused by outsourcing so much flying. I see a reverse trend here.
Additionally, please don't ever be lulled into thinking we have the 76 seat issue "locked down." Review our scope of 20 years past and you will see we have anything but a lock on this issue. We have been giving away bits and pieces of our scope clause for year after year. Did you know that ASA at one time planned on buying 737's? I know lots of Regionals that have planned many things, but none have come to be. Mesa also planned on buying 737's, but the pilot group told their CEO to take a hike. I know this to be fact, because I knew the ASA Chief Pilot at the time. Did you know that ASA also flew 88 seat connection aircraft for DAL, but they were painted white instead of connection colors? Are those aircraft still flying? The only reason the 50 seaters are going away is because they are extremely inefficient, passengers hate them, and they are rapidly being replaced with larger jets. You may want to check the amount of 50 seaters operating as DCI compared to 66/76 seat jets. I would say that 50 seaters being rapidly replaced by 76 seaters is inaccurate, as they total no where near the amount of 50 seaters once flying under DCI. We have a cap on the amount of allowable 76 seaters. I too could go on, my friend. I appreciate your optimissim, eagerness, and friendlness, and I hope I don't come across as the grouchy old Captain, but I probably have.
I will agree with you what the MEC and NC jobs were, but it was the way it was handled by the NW MEC and NC which I beleive was partially dishonest, misleading, and deplorable. Without writting a book here and dredging up more ugliness, I will leave it at that. Or at least try to. I can elaborate, but I prefer not to. The bottom line is that the final SLI was for the most part a fair and balanced agreement of which I think we can all live with. You're entitled to your opinion, but as it has been pointed out by both of us, it is a moot one. We agree here, and this is another DAL-N guy who has had nothing but pleasant experiences with DAL-S guys.
My veiw point about our fleet should not necessarily be misconstrued as pessimism. Although we now have a NWA's CEO, in the past DAL has always been very conservative regarding buying aircraft or expanding service. Sometimes this has proved to be a good decision, and sometimes not so good. The fact is, DAL has nearly always been the last one on the block to upgrade the fleet or expand. Contrarily, DAL has been a leader in buying regionals and outsourcing jobs to regionals. So forgive me if I seem pessimistic. True, but DAL has recently been selling/shedding regional partners. They have realized the damage caused by outsourcing so much flying. I see a reverse trend here.
Additionally, please don't ever be lulled into thinking we have the 76 seat issue "locked down." Review our scope of 20 years past and you will see we have anything but a lock on this issue. We have been giving away bits and pieces of our scope clause for year after year. Did you know that ASA at one time planned on buying 737's? I know lots of Regionals that have planned many things, but none have come to be. Mesa also planned on buying 737's, but the pilot group told their CEO to take a hike. I know this to be fact, because I knew the ASA Chief Pilot at the time. Did you know that ASA also flew 88 seat connection aircraft for DAL, but they were painted white instead of connection colors? Are those aircraft still flying? The only reason the 50 seaters are going away is because they are extremely inefficient, passengers hate them, and they are rapidly being replaced with larger jets. You may want to check the amount of 50 seaters operating as DCI compared to 66/76 seat jets. I would say that 50 seaters being rapidly replaced by 76 seaters is inaccurate, as they total no where near the amount of 50 seaters once flying under DCI. We have a cap on the amount of allowable 76 seaters. I too could go on, my friend. I appreciate your optimissim, eagerness, and friendlness, and I hope I don't come across as the grouchy old Captain, but I probably have.
No way have you come off as the grouchy old Captain, and I hope I haven't come off as the young punk, self entitlement FO.
I'm just happy that someone as senior as you is ready to tell management to shove it when they ask for more scope relief. 
03-28-2010, 05:24 PM
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Holy cow. I'm at 81 and part of that is because of recurrent and they still wouldn't give me short call the other day so I went 4 days without flying and I'm about 8-10 numbers down in my bucket to be called.
I think its fair to say the A320 is understaffed? Are we seeing that "hope" that we all had that because of Delta's work rules that the DALN side would be understaffed and that'd be good for us as the 30/40s started to leave the system. Hopefully the 30/40s don't disappear, 30/40s = Delta jobs and Delta new hire jobs.
If we had a new hire class on Monday and we had a class drop, I wonder what it'd be.
---
Tsquare, sorry about your vols.
I think its fair to say the A320 is understaffed? Are we seeing that "hope" that we all had that because of Delta's work rules that the DALN side would be understaffed and that'd be good for us as the 30/40s started to leave the system. Hopefully the 30/40s don't disappear, 30/40s = Delta jobs and Delta new hire jobs.
If we had a new hire class on Monday and we had a class drop, I wonder what it'd be.
---
Tsquare, sorry about your vols.
I'll end this month with a RAW of 162. I saw a DTW 320B with a RAW in the 170's this month!
03-28-2010, 05:45 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Waves, yes ASA had the BAE-146. I was there. I recall they had four of them and the white one you refer to was a loaner while the others went though their heavy checks. I beleive these checks were done in BNA but that was in early 1997 and cannot recall with 100% certainty of that.
Again, yes it was threatened to the Delta pilots that ASA would get the 737-200's back in that general time frame as well due to the fact that there was no scope protections in the DAL PWA. That was averted and as history as our lesson we get to today.
I agree, scope is never 100% nailed down. With the termination of the pension, we no longer need to protect the FAE figure. This provided a gain for the company under 1113C, it also gave this group the freedom it never had. We want great pay rates in our most senior widebody jets, but no longer is it tied to our retirement. That takes a bullet or two out of the gun pointed at us. People can now walk away as all retirement money is theirs the day it is deposited. IMO it also allows us to stare at the business end of a gun a lot longer before we flinch. That is huge.
What I also see as huge is that once again IMO, this group really seems to be steadfast on no more scope concessions. The MEC LEC members have mostly reaffirmed a commitment that scope is a major priority. In fact the D-ALPA Mission statement was changed this week as well. Of the reps that I know, I am very confident that no scope concessions will ever come to membership vote. Add to this fact, the Negotiation Committee is three first officers, and one very seasoned and industry respected Captain. We have a really good mix.
In closing, you are right, never take your eye away from the scope issue. Not just Small jets, but medium sized jets (AS Code), and Large Jets (Future JV's). All of it will effect our jobs, and of course at some point in the future we will be asked. I truly beleive that this group is quickly becoming one, and with one or two events we will meld in to a rock hard solidified group. Scope can do that real quick.
Again, yes it was threatened to the Delta pilots that ASA would get the 737-200's back in that general time frame as well due to the fact that there was no scope protections in the DAL PWA. That was averted and as history as our lesson we get to today.
I agree, scope is never 100% nailed down. With the termination of the pension, we no longer need to protect the FAE figure. This provided a gain for the company under 1113C, it also gave this group the freedom it never had. We want great pay rates in our most senior widebody jets, but no longer is it tied to our retirement. That takes a bullet or two out of the gun pointed at us. People can now walk away as all retirement money is theirs the day it is deposited. IMO it also allows us to stare at the business end of a gun a lot longer before we flinch. That is huge.
What I also see as huge is that once again IMO, this group really seems to be steadfast on no more scope concessions. The MEC LEC members have mostly reaffirmed a commitment that scope is a major priority. In fact the D-ALPA Mission statement was changed this week as well. Of the reps that I know, I am very confident that no scope concessions will ever come to membership vote. Add to this fact, the Negotiation Committee is three first officers, and one very seasoned and industry respected Captain. We have a really good mix.
In closing, you are right, never take your eye away from the scope issue. Not just Small jets, but medium sized jets (AS Code), and Large Jets (Future JV's). All of it will effect our jobs, and of course at some point in the future we will be asked. I truly beleive that this group is quickly becoming one, and with one or two events we will meld in to a rock hard solidified group. Scope can do that real quick.
03-28-2010, 06:13 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I think we should put this merger in terms we all understand and appreciate.
A veteran cop, named Delta, is partnered with a young homicidal cop, NWA. Both having one thing in common, hating working in pairs. Now they must learn to work with one and other to stop a gang of drug smugglers in Dallas, Chicago, Houston, JFK, and just about everywhere else.
If these two can learn to stand each other... the bad guys don't stand a chance.
5 points if you figure out what that movie is.
This industry is going to hell in a handbasket as enormous competition, excessive inventory, the government, past mistakes, the economy and a destoryed credit market ruins pricing power and profitability.
Delta and Northwest networks were "complementary," with Delta's strongholds in the South, Mountain West, Northeast, Europe and Latin America, and Northwest's positions in the Midwest, Canada and Asia. The carriers once merged direct competitive service on only 12 of more than 1,000 nonstop city pair routes currently flown by both airlines. A merged entity would bring together a mainline fleet of 800 aircraft that serve 390 destinations in 67 countries. (I didn't write that, can you tell? Its so good.)
Anyways, how much would it have cost and how long would it have taken for DALS in 2008 to get to the size it is today? Same as DALN?
Those in power made a deal, together we're better than alone. We're a marriage with kids and some but relatively not a lot of baggage. The birth order is getting screwed up with the kids, they're not happy, but in time if this works they'll be better off as long as they get over the fact there was a marriage, that the birth order thing is messed up and who'll get the better stuff and one day the better car.
We're merged. Now what? We lock down scope (no longer just an RJ issue but we've got direct replacement narrowbody and widebody jvs and codeshares to worry about), we improve work rules, we improve pay, we strengthen the union, we push management to address short and long term issues that will outlast them but not us and so on.
A veteran cop, named Delta, is partnered with a young homicidal cop, NWA. Both having one thing in common, hating working in pairs. Now they must learn to work with one and other to stop a gang of drug smugglers in Dallas, Chicago, Houston, JFK, and just about everywhere else.
If these two can learn to stand each other... the bad guys don't stand a chance.
5 points if you figure out what that movie is.
This industry is going to hell in a handbasket as enormous competition, excessive inventory, the government, past mistakes, the economy and a destoryed credit market ruins pricing power and profitability.
Delta and Northwest networks were "complementary," with Delta's strongholds in the South, Mountain West, Northeast, Europe and Latin America, and Northwest's positions in the Midwest, Canada and Asia. The carriers once merged direct competitive service on only 12 of more than 1,000 nonstop city pair routes currently flown by both airlines. A merged entity would bring together a mainline fleet of 800 aircraft that serve 390 destinations in 67 countries. (I didn't write that, can you tell? Its so good.)
Anyways, how much would it have cost and how long would it have taken for DALS in 2008 to get to the size it is today? Same as DALN?
Those in power made a deal, together we're better than alone. We're a marriage with kids and some but relatively not a lot of baggage. The birth order is getting screwed up with the kids, they're not happy, but in time if this works they'll be better off as long as they get over the fact there was a marriage, that the birth order thing is messed up and who'll get the better stuff and one day the better car.
We're merged. Now what? We lock down scope (no longer just an RJ issue but we've got direct replacement narrowbody and widebody jvs and codeshares to worry about), we improve work rules, we improve pay, we strengthen the union, we push management to address short and long term issues that will outlast them but not us and so on.
03-28-2010, 06:14 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
Holy cow. I'm at 81 and part of that is because of recurrent and they still wouldn't give me short call the other day so I went 4 days without flying and I'm about 8-10 numbers down in my bucket to be called.
I think its fair to say the A320 is understaffed? Are we seeing that "hope" that we all had that because of Delta's work rules that the DALN side would be understaffed and that'd be good for us as the 30/40s started to leave the system. Hopefully the 30/40s don't disappear, 30/40s = Delta jobs and Delta new hire jobs.
If we had a new hire class on Monday and we had a class drop, I wonder what it'd be.
---
Tsquare, sorry about your vols.
I think its fair to say the A320 is understaffed? Are we seeing that "hope" that we all had that because of Delta's work rules that the DALN side would be understaffed and that'd be good for us as the 30/40s started to leave the system. Hopefully the 30/40s don't disappear, 30/40s = Delta jobs and Delta new hire jobs.
If we had a new hire class on Monday and we had a class drop, I wonder what it'd be.
---
Tsquare, sorry about your vols.
03-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: SLC ERB
Posts: 467
Sadly, not even close. The SLC 88 was a way for junior guys (like me) to get into a otherwise senior base. With the transition to the 320 a bunch of our friends from the north were able to bid in and now SLC is just plain senior.
03-28-2010, 06:15 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Super, you out there?
I've got a picture for you.
And it ain't gonna be pretty.
This is also going to test all these new moderators.
I've got a picture for you.
And it ain't gonna be pretty.
This is also going to test all these new moderators.
03-28-2010, 06:18 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Like I said about 12-18 months ago, in five years we all will be sitting in a better position that we were at that time with this merger than we would have been with out it. This merger will pay more dividends to us that it already has.
My prediction is that once DAL starts posting number for Quaters 2-4 this year, it will force airlines like CAL and UAUA to the JOP for a marriage of necessity. Our profitability will force them to do so.
My prediction is that once DAL starts posting number for Quaters 2-4 this year, it will force airlines like CAL and UAUA to the JOP for a marriage of necessity. Our profitability will force them to do so.
03-28-2010, 06:19 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Super?
How did you get your avatar name anyhow?
How did you get your avatar name anyhow?
03-28-2010, 06:19 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Hey I have flow four days this month, but looking at reserve coverage for next month all but five days are in the black. Oh well back to W-O-R-K!
Enjoyed it while I had it.
With these reserve numbers I do not see how they can convert everyone.......
Enjoyed it while I had it.
With these reserve numbers I do not see how they can convert everyone.......
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