Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-28-2010, 05:28 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
02-28-2010, 05:33 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
I know none of us here would vote for any of the above, but we are a small percentage. Ask the senior captains you fly with. Report back here next month.
02-28-2010, 05:37 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
100% of us are concerned about what happens ahead of us on this list, the question is what percentile is worried about what happens behind us?
We've got some great senior folks that are willing to chime on this forum or speak up on the line, we just need to encourage that. I'd say "Go VOLS!" to one but its more pallatable to say "Screw Kiffin and USC!"
02-28-2010, 05:40 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 841
Great web name brings back some memories
02-28-2010, 05:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: FO forever
Posts: 413
Keenster,
Every time I read a sentence that includes the premise that "North guys are more militant...", it's difficult to give any credence to anything that follows. So let's try to look at that, and not get all territorial and go all "colors" and "bi-polar" on each other.
There is no polite way of describing the opposite of "more militant" in our industry. When you say someone isn't "militant", you mean they're really just a [might as well insert picture of kitten here].
Except for a few girlscouts, the South pilots do not have to take lessons from any other group of being "militant". A militant pilot is an activist that wants more, and is determined to get more. My impression of most pilots across the industry is that they are all militant. They certainly use different strategies and tactics, and they face different set of circumstances, but most all pilot groups are quite militant. Not all are successfull.
What's happening at Delta now is unusual by our own standards, and definitely unusual in the industry. This experiment with Moak and this MEC is definitely a change. At some point in the future, it is quite possible, if not likely, that it will run its' course, and circumstances may change for the uglier, as you describe. At that time, we will adapt. But at any time, the South guy that's next to you on the list can be counted on to be just as militant as you are.
We don't need any genetic modification to develop into militant pilots. We're already there. Even the pilots that came well before my time, some of whom even refused to use the term "union" were probably such insane megalomaniacs that the company didn't elect to screw with them. You may conclude that it was only because of the company's benevolence these guys were kept happy, but I don't think any company wastes money to placate people they don't respect. Based on what I know of my predecessors you can't rightly conclude it was because any of these guys lacked for a militant attitude. And you can't conclude, based on how we fared in CH11, or through the SLI, that our side lacked for imagination, or gumption, or militantism.
We certainly welcome new blood if it comes with new ideas. But we haven't been waiting for you to take a critical look at this MEC. When the time comes where they fall so far in love with their own ideas, that they need to be canned, you can count on me. In the meantime, thanks for not accidentally insulting my integrity, and the integrity of any of your "South" colleagues. I'm sure you mean well, and you want this group to be succesfull. I'm sure you sincerely think you will help make it better, stronger. That's great. I hope you will too.
In the meantime, there are lots and lots of legitimate ways of expressing cultural differences between the two groups. Once you've spent a little time in the cockpit with some of us, it'll be interesting to discuss them. Since I think you're going to live in a fenced world for several years, we'll have to wait. As we do so, maybe we can forgego this distraction about who is "more militant", since we're not just allies, but actually family now?
Maybe you can stop talking about who has the genetic make-up for battle, and focus instead about how to accomplish this?
Every time I read a sentence that includes the premise that "North guys are more militant...", it's difficult to give any credence to anything that follows. So let's try to look at that, and not get all territorial and go all "colors" and "bi-polar" on each other.
There is no polite way of describing the opposite of "more militant" in our industry. When you say someone isn't "militant", you mean they're really just a [might as well insert picture of kitten here].
Except for a few girlscouts, the South pilots do not have to take lessons from any other group of being "militant". A militant pilot is an activist that wants more, and is determined to get more. My impression of most pilots across the industry is that they are all militant. They certainly use different strategies and tactics, and they face different set of circumstances, but most all pilot groups are quite militant. Not all are successfull.
What's happening at Delta now is unusual by our own standards, and definitely unusual in the industry. This experiment with Moak and this MEC is definitely a change. At some point in the future, it is quite possible, if not likely, that it will run its' course, and circumstances may change for the uglier, as you describe. At that time, we will adapt. But at any time, the South guy that's next to you on the list can be counted on to be just as militant as you are.
We don't need any genetic modification to develop into militant pilots. We're already there. Even the pilots that came well before my time, some of whom even refused to use the term "union" were probably such insane megalomaniacs that the company didn't elect to screw with them. You may conclude that it was only because of the company's benevolence these guys were kept happy, but I don't think any company wastes money to placate people they don't respect. Based on what I know of my predecessors you can't rightly conclude it was because any of these guys lacked for a militant attitude. And you can't conclude, based on how we fared in CH11, or through the SLI, that our side lacked for imagination, or gumption, or militantism.
We certainly welcome new blood if it comes with new ideas. But we haven't been waiting for you to take a critical look at this MEC. When the time comes where they fall so far in love with their own ideas, that they need to be canned, you can count on me. In the meantime, thanks for not accidentally insulting my integrity, and the integrity of any of your "South" colleagues. I'm sure you mean well, and you want this group to be succesfull. I'm sure you sincerely think you will help make it better, stronger. That's great. I hope you will too.
In the meantime, there are lots and lots of legitimate ways of expressing cultural differences between the two groups. Once you've spent a little time in the cockpit with some of us, it'll be interesting to discuss them. Since I think you're going to live in a fenced world for several years, we'll have to wait. As we do so, maybe we can forgego this distraction about who is "more militant", since we're not just allies, but actually family now?
Maybe you can stop talking about who has the genetic make-up for battle, and focus instead about how to accomplish this?
IN no way was my post meant to be a slam to the south guys. Just trying to relay that the north guys come from a different culture(not intended to say that it was better than yours) that was somewhat more hostile than things here now and if needed we will draw a line in the sand when called upon. If you choose to deny the differencies between the two groups then you loose because both side have strenths and weaknesses. We must draw on the strengths of both sides to be successful in the future. Pointing out a diffenerce between the groups is not meant to be insulting to the other side. I view that kind of thinking as small. If you don't want to hear it, don't bother to read my posts but, I guess you kow all things about us and don't need any input or ideas on what we might think, know, or can contribute to the cause at hand. You will find most of the insulting words in your post as you choose to interpet my words into your words of kittens and girlscouts etc. That was not my intent at all. My discussion was directed at satchip in that he was worried that senior guys would not tow the line for scope. I wanted him to know that I felt like the north senior guys would. I have no feeling for what the senior south guys feel but he seems to have some worries.
Yes I can't wait until we can fly together so that we can finally share thoughts and ideas on a personal level. I think that we will find that we aren't really that much different personally but culturally we are.
I will tone down the more militant verbage. My point was that we come from a much more militant culture than you, not that you are not militant. And yes we are all one family now like it or not.
Glad to hear that you are ready for battle if needed.
Last edited by keenster; 02-28-2010 at 06:39 PM.
02-28-2010, 05:54 PM
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<AGREES!!
I am confused why we have to have a 76+ a/c Capt. make $x amount more or less than a certain FO on the pay scale. (I am all for maximum pay but lets get the flying first under the best terms possible) If the market rate of the aircraft is $x then we would be better to go to the company and say we will fly it for $x plus... not tie it to an FO rate that may be way above market rate. Now as a 10 year RJ Captain before I got to Delta making above 100K I know that aircraft can support a pretty good pay rate. I say just get them on the property and start raising the floor. Just make the 76+ a/c the entry equipment at better than market rates and open domiciles where pilots will want to fly them and have aggressive yearly increases. Name the city and guys will fly it for market rates rather than commute. DFW, MCO, CVG, DEN, SAN, SBA etc........
Get them on the property first. If a pilot wants to fly it based in XXX great, if not then it goes to the next junior pilot. Find the trade offs that are acceptable and capture the flying. JMHO.
Get them on the property first. If a pilot wants to fly it based in XXX great, if not then it goes to the next junior pilot. Find the trade offs that are acceptable and capture the flying. JMHO.
That would have to be a mainline aircraft. Look, I don't think we should spend a lot of effort trying to recapture 70 seat flying - that ship has sailed, but lets hold the line where it is now. We really need to look forward - if the company wants to operate a 96 seat jet with 12 First or BE seats great, but it will be flown by DAL pilots IAW our current contract.
I realize the economics on some of the smaller jets favor DCI but two things are often overlooked:
1. DCI would be losing money on them also if it wasn't for fee for departure, so saying DAL would lose money operating them seems to be at least a partially hollow argument.
2. Jet Blue is operating 100 seat jets at mainline without premium seating at rates very close to our DC-9 rates. If our mangement is as good as a lot of guys on this forum think they are- we should at least be able to match them with premium seating and everything else that comes with the worlds largest network.
Don't forget guys a lot of mainline personnel service DCI flights. Contract employees are contract employees, with similar costs, for mainline and DCI, ie cleaners, mechanics etc.
One final point on Scope for pay-rates. Pay rates come and go - when was the last time Scope moved in our favor?
With all of that said Scope is just one issue among many that are all very important to DAL Pilots. Yes, I think it is one of, if not, the most important issue, but I still want our Reps to look at everything, fight management when appropriate, and work with management when that is appropriate.
Scoop
I realize the economics on some of the smaller jets favor DCI but two things are often overlooked:
1. DCI would be losing money on them also if it wasn't for fee for departure, so saying DAL would lose money operating them seems to be at least a partially hollow argument.
2. Jet Blue is operating 100 seat jets at mainline without premium seating at rates very close to our DC-9 rates. If our mangement is as good as a lot of guys on this forum think they are- we should at least be able to match them with premium seating and everything else that comes with the worlds largest network.
Don't forget guys a lot of mainline personnel service DCI flights. Contract employees are contract employees, with similar costs, for mainline and DCI, ie cleaners, mechanics etc.
One final point on Scope for pay-rates. Pay rates come and go - when was the last time Scope moved in our favor?
With all of that said Scope is just one issue among many that are all very important to DAL Pilots. Yes, I think it is one of, if not, the most important issue, but I still want our Reps to look at everything, fight management when appropriate, and work with management when that is appropriate.
Scoop
Agreed again!!
02-28-2010, 05:55 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Not one more pound, not one more seat, not one more jet. Everyone seems to understand the issue of recapturing the 76 seat market, but absolutly refuses to allow another scope concession.
IMO for management to even try to take the 77-100 seat market in CH11 they need to put or CBA well above C2K for guys to think there would be enough to lose not to agree to it. Just sayin, not that I agree with it, but at the current book 85-90% of the ppl on the list would not bite even with the threat of having the CBA thrown out by a judge.
Most of the CA's we fly with share the sentiment that you state. Lucky for us they are about 10% of the list. The vast majority will not stomach a scope sale, no matter what the raise is. Many are weary of recapturing scope with little or no changes to pay and QOL of issues.
Sink, great post.
02-28-2010, 06:04 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
We must draw on the strengths of both sides to be successful in the future.
Yes I can't wait until we can fly together so that we can finally share thought and ideas on a personal level. I think that we will find that we aren't really that much different personally but culturally we are.
I will tone down the more militant verbage. My point was that we come from a much more militant culture than you, not that you are not militant.
Glad to hear that you are ready for battle if needed.
Yes I can't wait until we can fly together so that we can finally share thought and ideas on a personal level. I think that we will find that we aren't really that much different personally but culturally we are.
I will tone down the more militant verbage. My point was that we come from a much more militant culture than you, not that you are not militant.
Glad to hear that you are ready for battle if needed.
The airport at MSP is fantastic. Takes awhile to get to the crew bus when you're done but a very nice, clean airport with great gate crews. The eating possibilities far outweigh anything you'll find in ATL or any other DAL hub. The people are so nice you'll be amazed that you ever trafficked ATL.
The next time through, two days later, yielded similar crew angst on the van and in the hotel. I went down to the Holiday Inn restaurant/bar for a glass of wine and a salad. Again, fnwa crews were complaining about the end game, the merger. I'm sure there must be a lot of disappointment and chaos that comes with changing your culture. Still, I was thinking about the big picture. We have jobs, we're the world's largest airline, stock is on the rise, and we have nothing but remarkable things in store.
Also, I had to deice in MSP the other day. Man, do you guys have that down! The most professional and expedient deicing I have ever encountered in over 27 years of flying.
Hey DSouth guys. They got it going on up there. Still, I couldn't pull the trigger on Walleye or lutefisk (whatever the hell that is).
Buzz
02-28-2010, 06:06 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Good idea Buzz, if you did, you might have needed a few more glasses of wine. I am from up that way, and I still do not like it.
02-28-2010, 06:07 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
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