Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-28-2010, 04:51 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Top
Posts: 472
I am confused why we have to have a 76+ a/c Capt. make $x amount more or less than a certain FO on the pay scale. (I am all for maximum pay but lets get the flying first under the best terms possible) If the market rate of the aircraft is $x then we would be better to go to the company and say we will fly it for $x plus... not tie it to an FO rate that may be way above market rate. Now as a 10 year RJ Captain before I got to Delta making above 100K I know that aircraft can support a pretty good pay rate. I say just get them on the property and start raising the floor. Just make the 76+ a/c the entry equipment at better than market rates and open domiciles where pilots will want to fly them and have aggressive yearly increases. Name the city and guys will fly it for market rates rather than commute. DFW, MCO, CVG, DEN, SAN, SBA etc........
Get them on the property first. If a pilot wants to fly it based in XXX great, if not then it goes to the next junior pilot. Find the trade offs that are acceptable and capture the flying. JMHO.
Get them on the property first. If a pilot wants to fly it based in XXX great, if not then it goes to the next junior pilot. Find the trade offs that are acceptable and capture the flying. JMHO.
NB: With all this stuff, I'm speaking in general terms. When it comes time to actually negotiate, we'd all expect dramatically more granularity.
02-28-2010, 04:51 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Based on the history of the 2 carriers, North guys are in general more militant towards management than the south guys. At every turn of the wheel we had to watch our backs and fight with management. We have been on strike a few times in the past. I don't think that you will find a better group of guys when the ball drops to take a stand with management probably we will be much more ready that the south group because it is in our nature and what we grew up with. It seem to me that you need some north blood in some of these MECs because as a newbie look in now, I see alot of cushy nice talk when it comes to the company. Fine, if that works but I bet money that things are going to get uglier rather that prettier in the future and they will test us as a group and we better get off the can and draw a line in the sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every time I read a sentence that includes the premise that "North guys are more militant...", it's difficult to give any credence to anything that follows. So let's try to look at that, and not get all territorial and go all "colors" and "bi-polar" on each other.
There is no polite way of describing the opposite of "more militant" in our industry. When you say someone isn't "militant", you mean they're really just a [might as well insert picture of kitten here].
Except for a few girlscouts, the South pilots do not have to take lessons from any other group of being "militant". A militant pilot is an activist that wants more, and is determined to get more. My impression of most pilots across the industry is that they are all militant. They certainly use different strategies and tactics, and they face different set of circumstances, but most all pilot groups are quite militant. Not all are successfull.
What's happening at Delta now is unusual by our own standards, and definitely unusual in the industry. This experiment with Moak and this MEC is definitely a change. At some point in the future, it is quite possible, if not likely, that it will run its' course, and circumstances may change for the uglier, as you describe. At that time, we will adapt. But at any time, the South guy that's next to you on the list can be counted on to be just as militant as you are.
We don't need any genetic modification to develop into militant pilots. We're already there. Even the pilots that came well before my time, some of whom even refused to use the term "union" were probably such insane megalomaniacs that the company didn't elect to screw with them. You may conclude that it was only because of the company's benevolence these guys were kept happy, but I don't think any company wastes money to placate people they don't respect. Based on what I know of my predecessors you can't rightly conclude it was because any of these guys lacked for a militant attitude. And you can't conclude, based on how we fared in CH11, or through the SLI, that our side lacked for imagination, or gumption, or militantism.
We certainly welcome new blood if it comes with new ideas. But we haven't been waiting for you to take a critical look at this MEC. When the time comes where they fall so far in love with their own ideas, that they need to be canned, you can count on me. In the meantime, thanks for not accidentally insulting my integrity, and the integrity of any of your "South" colleagues. I'm sure you mean well, and you want this group to be succesfull. I'm sure you sincerely think you will help make it better, stronger. That's great. I hope you will too.
In the meantime, there are lots and lots of legitimate ways of expressing cultural differences between the two groups. Once you've spent a little time in the cockpit with some of us, it'll be interesting to discuss them. Since I think you're going to live in a fenced world for several years, we'll have to wait. As we do so, maybe we can forgego this distraction about who is "more militant", since we're not just allies, but actually family now?
Maybe you can stop talking about who has the genetic make-up for battle, and focus instead about how to accomplish this?
02-28-2010, 04:59 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Excellent post sink r8.. spot on.
02-28-2010, 05:02 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
02-28-2010, 05:07 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Someone mentioned earlier that as of right now there is a cap on 76 seaters and aircraft with more than 76 seats and so what is all the complaining about? Because were hopefully not so moronic and such failures as to ever allow scope to be relaxed.
So I tried to think of some ways to get scope relaxed and share it:
I'm just playing with ideas on how to split up a group and challenge our unified stance of not one more seat, not more lb, not one more jet- top to bottom.
So I tried to think of some ways to get scope relaxed and share it:
- Dear pilots, we'll open a DFW base with 73Ns, MD90s and possibly 767s but we need some help, we need 50 more 76 seaters (a 1:1.5 replacement with 50 seaters, thats all) and 20 E195s at DCI (its really important for XYZ reasons) and we need to allow China Southern to do our LAX/NYC/DTW to China flights and we promise we'll never ask for one more change in scope, or
- 6 weeks of vacation for 20 more 76 seaters at DCI, or
- We're taking 20 744s from JAL and converting 5 737s to 773s, a 10% increase of pay across the board for 2011-2012 just need you to agree to unlimited 76 seaterzs and a limited amount of E190s at DCI, or
- 25% raise for 2011-2012... just need 100 seat or less aircraft at DCI and we'll shrink DCI by 40% but we need lift the cap on 76 seat or larger aircraft, or
- We will merge Compass into Delta, we'll drop RAH, we'll never give another DCI a 76 seater but we're going to increase the mainline fleet of 76+ seat jets and order either the Cseries... yeah, just need you to let AF/KLM do all USA to France and Amsterdam, and USA-Seoul by Korean and Aeroflot will do all USA-SVO.
I'm just playing with ideas on how to split up a group and challenge our unified stance of not one more seat, not more lb, not one more jet- top to bottom.
02-28-2010, 05:07 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Keenster,
Every time I read a sentence that includes the premise that "North guys are more militant...", it's difficult to give any credence to anything that follows. So let's try to look at that, and not get all territorial and go all "colors" and "bi-polar" on each other.
There is no polite way of describing the opposite of "more militant" in our industry. When you say someone isn't "militant", you mean they're really just a [might as well insert picture of kitten here].
Except for a few girlscouts, the South pilots do not have to take lessons from any other group of being "militant". A militant pilot is an activist that wants more, and is determined to get more. My impression of most pilots across the industry is that they are all militant. They certainly use different strategies and tactics, and they face different set of circumstances, but most all pilot groups are quite militant. Not all are successfull.
What's happening at Delta now is unusual by our own standards, and definitely unusual in the industry. This experiment with Moak and this MEC is definitely a change. At some point in the future, it is quite possible, if not likely, that it will run its' course, and circumstances may change for the uglier, as you describe. At that time, we will adapt. But at any time, the South guy that's next to you on the list can be counted on to be just as militant as you are.
We don't need any genetic modification to develop into militant pilots. We're already there. Even the pilots that came well before my time, some of whom even refused to use the term "union" were probably such insane megalomaniacs that the company didn't elect to screw with them. You may conclude that it was only because of the company's benevolence these guys were kept happy, but I don't think any company wastes money to placate people they don't respect. Based on what I know of my predecessors you can't rightly conclude it was because any of these guys lacked for a militant attitude. And you can't conclude, based on how we fared in CH11, or through the SLI, that our side lacked for imagination, or gumption, or militantism.
We certainly welcome new blood if it comes with new ideas. But we haven't been waiting for you to take a critical look at this MEC. When the time comes where they fall so far in love with their own ideas, that they need to be canned, you can count on me. In the meantime, thanks for not accidentally insulting my integrity, and the integrity of any of your "South" colleagues. I'm sure you mean well, and you want this group to be succesfull. I'm sure you sincerely think you will help make it better, stronger. That's great. I hope you will too.
In the meantime, there are lots and lots of legitimate ways of expressing cultural differences between the two groups. Once you've spent a little time in the cockpit with some of us, it'll be interesting to discuss them. Since I think you're going to live in a fenced world for several years, we'll have to wait. As we do so, maybe we can forgego this distraction about who is "more militant", since we're not just allies, but actually family now?
Maybe you can stop talking about who has the genetic make-up for battle, and focus instead about how to accomplish this?
Every time I read a sentence that includes the premise that "North guys are more militant...", it's difficult to give any credence to anything that follows. So let's try to look at that, and not get all territorial and go all "colors" and "bi-polar" on each other.
There is no polite way of describing the opposite of "more militant" in our industry. When you say someone isn't "militant", you mean they're really just a [might as well insert picture of kitten here].
Except for a few girlscouts, the South pilots do not have to take lessons from any other group of being "militant". A militant pilot is an activist that wants more, and is determined to get more. My impression of most pilots across the industry is that they are all militant. They certainly use different strategies and tactics, and they face different set of circumstances, but most all pilot groups are quite militant. Not all are successfull.
What's happening at Delta now is unusual by our own standards, and definitely unusual in the industry. This experiment with Moak and this MEC is definitely a change. At some point in the future, it is quite possible, if not likely, that it will run its' course, and circumstances may change for the uglier, as you describe. At that time, we will adapt. But at any time, the South guy that's next to you on the list can be counted on to be just as militant as you are.
We don't need any genetic modification to develop into militant pilots. We're already there. Even the pilots that came well before my time, some of whom even refused to use the term "union" were probably such insane megalomaniacs that the company didn't elect to screw with them. You may conclude that it was only because of the company's benevolence these guys were kept happy, but I don't think any company wastes money to placate people they don't respect. Based on what I know of my predecessors you can't rightly conclude it was because any of these guys lacked for a militant attitude. And you can't conclude, based on how we fared in CH11, or through the SLI, that our side lacked for imagination, or gumption, or militantism.
We certainly welcome new blood if it comes with new ideas. But we haven't been waiting for you to take a critical look at this MEC. When the time comes where they fall so far in love with their own ideas, that they need to be canned, you can count on me. In the meantime, thanks for not accidentally insulting my integrity, and the integrity of any of your "South" colleagues. I'm sure you mean well, and you want this group to be succesfull. I'm sure you sincerely think you will help make it better, stronger. That's great. I hope you will too.
In the meantime, there are lots and lots of legitimate ways of expressing cultural differences between the two groups. Once you've spent a little time in the cockpit with some of us, it'll be interesting to discuss them. Since I think you're going to live in a fenced world for several years, we'll have to wait. As we do so, maybe we can forgego this distraction about who is "more militant", since we're not just allies, but actually family now?
Maybe you can stop talking about who has the genetic make-up for battle, and focus instead about how to accomplish this?
The "we're tougher than you" really gets old... besides, its results that matter. And both sides have some things to be proud of, and some things to.... well, not so much
02-28-2010, 05:12 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Someone mentioned earlier that as of right now there is a cap on 76 seaters and aircraft with more than 76 seats and so what is all the complaining about? Because were hopefully not so moronic and such failures as to ever allow scope to be relaxed.
So I tried to think of some ways to get scope relaxed and share it:
So I tried to think of some ways to get scope relaxed and share it:
- Dear pilots, we'll open a DFW base with 73Ns, MD90s and possibly 767s but we need some help, we need 50 more 76 seaters (a 1:1.5 replacement with 50 seaters, thats all) and 20 E195s at DCI (its really important for XYZ reasons) and we need to allow China Southern to do our LAX/NYC/DTW to China flights and we promise we'll never ask for one more change in scope, or
- 6 weeks of vacation for 20 more 76 seaters at DCI, or
- We're taking 20 744s from JAL and converting 5 737s to 773s, a 10% increase of pay across the board for 2011-2012 just need you to agree to unlimited 76 seaterzs and a limited amount of E190s at DCI, or
- 25% raise for 2011-2012... just need 100 seat or less aircraft at DCI and we'll shrink DCI by 40% but we need lift the cap on 76 seat or larger aircraft, or
- We will merge Compass into Delta, we'll drop RAH, we'll never give another DCI a 76 seater but we're going to increase the mainline fleet of 76+ seat jets and order either the Cseries... yeah, just need you to let AF/KLM do all USA to France and Amsterdam, and USA-Seoul by Korean and Aeroflot will do all USA-SVO.
See any trend here.
02-28-2010, 05:17 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Great, when can I fly it. I will not vote for anything that has a scope concession. I do not care if it offered 500 bucks an hr to a new hire. The blood money would be temporary.
02-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I agree with PG, any scope concession tied to any sort of pay raise is a flat no. I say do not even bring it to the pilot group to vote no. Save your time. 
02-28-2010, 05:27 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Congrats, here is your bullhorn
, use it wisely and as loud as Rev Sharpton. I agree with Bar's comments about it'd been nice to have that DN guy in, but like him or not Rush Limbaugh makes a sizable impact staying as far from DC as possible and being free to say whatever he wants. I mean I wish for educational purposes slow would talk more because recently I talked to someone very very much in the know, to say it lightly, and a lot of what he said I've heard from slow.
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