Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
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Frank;
The question becomes do we draw the line and fight at 100 seats or fight at 76 seats to keep the fire away from the 100 seat platform. All questions to ask yourself and your mate when you are cruising along.
What you have posted proves what I have been saying about the generalities of this group. Most are willing to fight for scope, but fight for status quo and no more concessions.
The question becomes do we draw the line and fight at 100 seats or fight at 76 seats to keep the fire away from the 100 seat platform. All questions to ask yourself and your mate when you are cruising along.
What you have posted proves what I have been saying about the generalities of this group. Most are willing to fight for scope, but fight for status quo and no more concessions.
I'll burn the house down for 76+1, any extra pound, or any extra jet. Just sayin...
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That was my entire point in the exchange between Keenster, Denny, and I. There are 12000 different motivations for voting. For Keenster to say that all the North guys will not sell scope is very Utopian. People vote self interests. It's easy to see where short term self interests lie for certain demographics of our list. For some there are no long term consequences because they don't have a long term.
I am not declaring that I know how they will vote, just making a prediction based on observation. Like a technical stock picker, he looks at the chart, bases his decision on the math and the trends. But he can never be sure how millions of irrational human beings are going to behave.
I am not declaring that I know how they will vote, just making a prediction based on observation. Like a technical stock picker, he looks at the chart, bases his decision on the math and the trends. But he can never be sure how millions of irrational human beings are going to behave.
Based on the history of the 2 carriers, North guys are in general more militant towards management than the south guys. At every turn of the wheel we had to watch our backs and fight with management. We have been on strike a few times in the past. I don't think that you will find a better group of guys when the ball drops to take a stand with management. Probably, we will be much more ready that the south group because it is in our nature and what we grew up with. It seems to me that you need some north blood in some of these MECs because as a newbie looking in now, I see alot of cushy nice talk when it comes to the company. Fine, if that works, but I bet money that things are going to get uglier rather that prettier in the future and they will test us as a group. We better get off the can and draw a line in the sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Being a senior guy I am just as concerned about scope as the most junior guy because the bottom line is where does it stop and what will this airline look like in ten years. I hope they are mainline builders and not mainline out sourcers. Scope concerns every single guy here and if someone does not think so he has his head in the sand or another place that smells bad.(Parking the 747-200s is a good example of how the senior guys here might look at how scope could affect them.) I can't tell you how every guy will vote but I do know the general mood of the senior guys over here and if needed they will take a stand for scope. As you well know, it is not the average line pilot you need to worry about, it is the elected reps and what they do. I want to know why we are not hearing anything from the union on this. I am a proponent of Mem RAT for this very reason. I am not so trusting of our union reps. Good luck to us all.
Last edited by keenster; 02-28-2010 at 04:18 PM.
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Frank;
The question becomes do we draw the line and fight at 100 seats or fight at 76 seats to keep the fire away from the 100 seat platform. All questions to ask yourself and your mate when you are cruising along.
What you have posted proves what I have been saying about the generalities of this group. Most are willing to fight for scope, but fight for status quo and no more concessions.
The question becomes do we draw the line and fight at 100 seats or fight at 76 seats to keep the fire away from the 100 seat platform. All questions to ask yourself and your mate when you are cruising along.
What you have posted proves what I have been saying about the generalities of this group. Most are willing to fight for scope, but fight for status quo and no more concessions.
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Nothing to add, just wanted to pimp my new avatar.
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I suggest that the middle is defined by those on the margins. If you can shift the debate ever so slightly in your favor, you can capture some of the middle.
I don't know that I'm willing to go to war to recapture scope. If we do want to recapture, I'm fine with doing it gradually, as old agreements expire. I'm fine with paying a mainline RJ captain less than a -400 FO, if that's what it takes. And I'm fine with 76-seaters staying offline in return for a nice raise.
I am, however, willing to go to war to draw the line there. 100-seaters are substantial airplanes that belong on mainline.
I don't know that I'm willing to go to war to recapture scope. If we do want to recapture, I'm fine with doing it gradually, as old agreements expire. I'm fine with paying a mainline RJ captain less than a -400 FO, if that's what it takes. And I'm fine with 76-seaters staying offline in return for a nice raise.
I am, however, willing to go to war to draw the line there. 100-seaters are substantial airplanes that belong on mainline.
Get them on the property first. If a pilot wants to fly it based in XXX great, if not then it goes to the next junior pilot. Find the trade offs that are acceptable and capture the flying. JMHO.
Last edited by FIIGMO; 02-28-2010 at 04:22 PM. Reason: I went to state college. That is like going to high school twice!
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I'm with all of the posters about not one more seat/pound.
The real questions:
1. Would our Negotiations Committee bring a TA to the MEC with "a scope giveaway for a pay raise?" (My guess no.)
2. Would the MEC send a TA brought by the NC with "a scope giveaway for a pay raise" to the membership for ratification? (Again, my guess is no.)
3. Would the membership sign off on "a scope giveaway for a pay raise" knowing how that turned out last time? (My guess, not a chance.)
If the MEC is going to represent the wants/desires of the Membership in its "direction to the Neg. Comm.", I think that it is a non-starter and a scope sale (on either RJ/JV/Codeshare) is extremely unlikely.
***Offically (per RLA regulations) every section is requied to be "on the table" but in reality Section 1 is not even worth spending time on for the Company(if they are looking for relief of any kind).
We need to keep making as much headway as possible on LOA's, so that we have less to "ask for" during the amendable period.
Section 6 negotiations are pretty much a joke anyway, the system is completely broken....If PCL pilots can't get a release after 5 YEARS and only looking for 10-15% improvements, what can we realistically expect to get in the way of "help with negotiations" from the NMB.........I'm just sayin'.....
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That would have to be a mainline aircraft. Look, I don't think we should spend a lot of effort trying to recapture 70 seat flying - that ship has sailed, but lets hold the line where it is now. We really need to look forward - if the company wants to operate a 96 seat jet with 12 First or BE seats great, but it will be flown by DAL pilots IAW our current contract.
I realize the economics on some of the smaller jets favor DCI but two things are often overlooked:
1. DCI would be losing money on them also if it wasn't for fee for departure, so saying DAL would lose money operating them seems to be at least a partially hollow argument.
2. Jet Blue is operating 100 seat jets at mainline without premium seating at rates very close to our DC-9 rates. If our mangement is as good as a lot of guys on this forum think they are- we should at least be able to match them with premium seating and everything else that comes with the worlds largest network.
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Don't forget guys a lot of mainline personnel service DCI flights. Contract employees are contract employees, with similar costs, for mainline and DCI, ie cleaners, mechanics etc.
One final point on Scope for pay-rates. Pay rates come and go - when was the last time Scope moved in our favor?
With all of that said Scope is just one issue among many that are all very important to DAL Pilots. Yes, I think it is one of, if not, the most important issue, but I still want our Reps to look at everything, fight management when appropriate, and work with management when that is appropriate.
Scoop
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Sat,
Based on the history of the 2 carriers, North guys are in general more militant towards management than the south guys. At every turn of the wheel we had to watch our backs and fight with management. We have been on strike a few times in the past. I don't think that you will find a better group of guys when the ball drops to take a stand with management probably we will be much more ready that the south group because it is in our nature and what we grew up with. It seem to me that you need some north blood in some of these MECs because as a newbie look in now, I see alot of cushy nice talk when it comes to the company. Fine, if that works but I bet money that things are going to get uglier rather that prettier in the future and they will test us as a group and we better get off the can and draw a line in the sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![Cool](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Being a senior guy I am just as concerned about scope as the most junoir guy because the bottom line is where does it stop and what will this airline look like in ten years. I hope they are mainline builders and not mainline out sourcers. Scope concerns every single guy here and if someone does not think so he has his head in the sand or another place that smells bad.(Parking the 747-200s is a good example of how the senior guys here might look at how scope could affect them.) I can't tell you how every guy will vote but I do know the general mood of the senior guys over here and if needed they will take a stand for scope. As you well know, it is not the average line pilot you need to worry about, it is the elected reps and what they do. I want to know why we are not hearing anything from the union on this. I am a proponent of Mem RAT for this very reason. I am not so trusting of our union reps. Good luck to us all.
Based on the history of the 2 carriers, North guys are in general more militant towards management than the south guys. At every turn of the wheel we had to watch our backs and fight with management. We have been on strike a few times in the past. I don't think that you will find a better group of guys when the ball drops to take a stand with management probably we will be much more ready that the south group because it is in our nature and what we grew up with. It seem to me that you need some north blood in some of these MECs because as a newbie look in now, I see alot of cushy nice talk when it comes to the company. Fine, if that works but I bet money that things are going to get uglier rather that prettier in the future and they will test us as a group and we better get off the can and draw a line in the sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
![Cool](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Being a senior guy I am just as concerned about scope as the most junoir guy because the bottom line is where does it stop and what will this airline look like in ten years. I hope they are mainline builders and not mainline out sourcers. Scope concerns every single guy here and if someone does not think so he has his head in the sand or another place that smells bad.(Parking the 747-200s is a good example of how the senior guys here might look at how scope could affect them.) I can't tell you how every guy will vote but I do know the general mood of the senior guys over here and if needed they will take a stand for scope. As you well know, it is not the average line pilot you need to worry about, it is the elected reps and what they do. I want to know why we are not hearing anything from the union on this. I am a proponent of Mem RAT for this very reason. I am not so trusting of our union reps. Good luck to us all.
I'll trust what you say but forgive me for being a little fired up about this. I hate the fact that my continued employment during my peak earning years is in the hands of others whose interests may not lie with mine.
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Another thing to watch out for. I commuted on a new 900 with BE seats. It was nice. The coach seats seemed to have more room than the back of a 757. I know I was more comfortable. The company doesn't have to have new 100 seaters if they can use these 900s.
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I posted the previous one before I read yours. Gosh I hope you're right. I bet there are some "deadzoners" on the North side too. Their self interests may not lie with scope protection. They may lie with increases in pay and DC. After all the back side of the curve is rapidly approaching.
I'll trust what you say but forgive me for being a little fired up about this. I hate the fact that my continued employment during my peak earning years is in the hands of others whose interests may not lie with mine.
I'll trust what you say but forgive me for being a little fired up about this. I hate the fact that my continued employment during my peak earning years is in the hands of others whose interests may not lie with mine.
I'm glad you are fired up, keep it up and you have nothing to be forgiven for. I have your same concern that our futures are in the hands of a few and we should always be cautious and vigilant.
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