Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-26-2010, 05:46 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
It's not cheaper to fly them at mainline. For guidance look at the birth of Compass, a non-fee for departure airline.
Compass should be on our list
This also isn't necessarily true. Economies of scale are only a small part of the larger economic equation. There have been some large regionals with better economies of scale fall on much harder times than upstarts.
Don't fly anything at a loss, then economies of scale do kick in. Why is it cheaper to fly ASA from CHA to ATL to LAX than just to Drive to ATL and fly DAL to LAX. The flying is subsidized. Don't subsidize it and the Economies of scale become clearer. (I did not look up the costs, I'm just using this one as an example.)
Only in certain hubs. Many outstations they're doing the underwing and other services for us through Regional Elite Staffing services.
See above
You're correct, it would be a new entry level. There's a lot of change associated with that when you look at the real world economic environment.
OKAY! so print the new letterhead, BFD!
While I won't dispute that CMR's PID attempt, pilot strike, and JC Lawson's furlough letter set labor relations back a whole bunch, management got "even" in bankruptcy. Also, Delta has the exact same level of control over Compass and Mesaba, and they aren't currently shrinking as much. You might look at costs as a driving factor. Right now the junior CMR Captain has at least 9 years, while the senior Compass Captain has 3. That's the same across most of the work groups, and gives Comair a "legacy" cost structure among the regionals.
One note, Mesaba has a bunch of contractual "snap-backs" coming late this year. Note that they've decided to shrink the Saab fleet and DCI is abandoning Mesaba service to some smaller airports as their pay/rules are restored to pre-bankruptcy levels. I'm not suggesting that pilot wages alone are responsible for that reduction, but it appears to me that they contributed to that decision.
As an aside, the relationship between the ALPA represented DCI's and mainline has improved significantly over the last 18 months. I think that's good for all parties.
Compass should be on our list
This also isn't necessarily true. Economies of scale are only a small part of the larger economic equation. There have been some large regionals with better economies of scale fall on much harder times than upstarts.
Don't fly anything at a loss, then economies of scale do kick in. Why is it cheaper to fly ASA from CHA to ATL to LAX than just to Drive to ATL and fly DAL to LAX. The flying is subsidized. Don't subsidize it and the Economies of scale become clearer. (I did not look up the costs, I'm just using this one as an example.)
Only in certain hubs. Many outstations they're doing the underwing and other services for us through Regional Elite Staffing services.
See above
You're correct, it would be a new entry level. There's a lot of change associated with that when you look at the real world economic environment.
OKAY! so print the new letterhead, BFD!
While I won't dispute that CMR's PID attempt, pilot strike, and JC Lawson's furlough letter set labor relations back a whole bunch, management got "even" in bankruptcy. Also, Delta has the exact same level of control over Compass and Mesaba, and they aren't currently shrinking as much. You might look at costs as a driving factor. Right now the junior CMR Captain has at least 9 years, while the senior Compass Captain has 3. That's the same across most of the work groups, and gives Comair a "legacy" cost structure among the regionals.
One note, Mesaba has a bunch of contractual "snap-backs" coming late this year. Note that they've decided to shrink the Saab fleet and DCI is abandoning Mesaba service to some smaller airports as their pay/rules are restored to pre-bankruptcy levels. I'm not suggesting that pilot wages alone are responsible for that reduction, but it appears to me that they contributed to that decision.
As an aside, the relationship between the ALPA represented DCI's and mainline has improved significantly over the last 18 months. I think that's good for all parties.
02-26-2010, 05:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 354
Just an open invitation, but if you guys have any major dog problems and have the time to run them to Montgomery, my dad lectures all over the world and is very good and cheap!!! PM me if you need something.
02-26-2010, 05:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
02-26-2010, 06:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Another beautiful example of the wages of outsourcing:
Flight canceled after flight attendants brawl | ajc.com
Flight canceled after flight attendants brawl | ajc.com
02-26-2010, 06:21 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Another beautiful example of the wages of outsourcing:
Flight canceled after flight attendants brawl | ajc.com
Flight canceled after flight attendants brawl | ajc.com
Take this from an article in 2003 and then in 2009:
2003
Delta Air Lines Inc. has been losing money since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, and doesn't anticipate returning to profitability anytime soon. But the company is getting some relief from a decision to outsource parts of its call-center operations offshore, and is on track to save $26 million this year, said Gloria Richard, Delta's general manager of call-center partner relations.
2009
You may have noticed that Delta Air Lines is no longer outsourcing reservations calls to India. Why? For years, the airline says, it has received complaints from customers who prefer to speak to someone in the U.S. Delta began sending some reservations work to India in 2002 as a cost-cutting measure, and the carrier continues to operate foreign call centers in Jamaica and South Africa. United Airlines began outsourcing some reservations calls to India earlier in the decade, but some of the work has been brought back to the U.S. United also has call centers in Chicago, Detroit and Hawaii.
02-26-2010, 06:30 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
To reiterate, there will come a time when it is cheaper to have small airliners operated by Delta and not DCI. The problem is the catalyst.
Will it be bad service, bad performance, bad pr, bad management (look at Bar's post concerning his conversations with his CPO), bad training, bad hiring, or:
Now, I'm a regional guy. I worked at a regional with a top notch flight ops and training department and a lousy lousy HR department that it inherited from its mainline carrier. I trusted my airline and the pilots I flew with. But can you trust them all?
Sure we detest whipsaws here in the airline pilot world because it begets all sorts of quality issues. But then again lack of a whipsaw means higher costs. You need whipsaws to lower costs so if you end up having to end the whipsaws then why outsource anyways? Anotherwords, we (DAL) can't keep doing this because one day its either going to bite us in the butt or cost us money.
Either way it won't be worth it in the future but as ACL indicated there are of course issues to recapturing or keeping flying (100 seaters) like debt, and debt, and debt, and debt. Long live the DC-9.
Will it be bad service, bad performance, bad pr, bad management (look at Bar's post concerning his conversations with his CPO), bad training, bad hiring, or:
Now, I'm a regional guy. I worked at a regional with a top notch flight ops and training department and a lousy lousy HR department that it inherited from its mainline carrier. I trusted my airline and the pilots I flew with. But can you trust them all?
Sure we detest whipsaws here in the airline pilot world because it begets all sorts of quality issues. But then again lack of a whipsaw means higher costs. You need whipsaws to lower costs so if you end up having to end the whipsaws then why outsource anyways? Anotherwords, we (DAL) can't keep doing this because one day its either going to bite us in the butt or cost us money.
Either way it won't be worth it in the future but as ACL indicated there are of course issues to recapturing or keeping flying (100 seaters) like debt, and debt, and debt, and debt. Long live the DC-9.
02-26-2010, 06:37 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
As much as I'd like to have DCI airplanes at mainline Delta, I can't see it happening - here's why:
Cost.
I'm talking, really low rates to pay for all the other costs that Delta would have to absorb. The DCI airplanes right now are maintained by mechanics being are probably paid less than they are at Delta. The planes are dispatched using dispatchers who are paid less than Delta dispatchers. Cleaned by people making less than Delta cleaners (maybe, they might use the same people). The Flight attendants make less than Delta flight attendants. The gate agents are paid less than Delta gate agents.
This is what I feel ALPA is saying when they say, "you don't want to work for the pay rates that will bring the plane to mainline."
I am not sure all that you say is correct. In ATL DAL mainline employees took over much of the above from ASA. Some of the costs are probably a little lower, but I don't think it is totally prohibitive - especially when you look at a true cost-benefit analysis, higher costs but also much higher quality service.
There probably is a defining size that DAL can not fly profitably (not that DCI flies profitably sans fee for departure -think Expressjet and Indy air). The fact that Jetblue flies a 100 seat jet at a decent pay rate leads me to believe that we should be able to accommodate a 100 seater profitably at mainline.
What really gets to me is the fact that our DCI carriers are mostly turning a profit and we are rarely breaking even - from a management point of view outsourcing flying should be a loser.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 02-26-2010 at 06:53 AM.
02-26-2010, 06:43 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: G550 Captain
Posts: 1,206
+1. I could not agree more. You can't have the "seamless Delta quality service" experience for passengers unless all DAL flights are flown by pilots on the DAL seniority list wearing DAL uniforms and serviced by DAL FAs. I believe, DAL wants to break away from the traditional mold of running the legacy carrier by being innovative, and this move will free them to add any aircraft size they feel is appropriate without having to fight the Union. It's clear DAL wants to get rid of 50 seat RJs. 76 seat RJs are temporary solutions to a long term problem that needs to be addresses right now.
As the bottom list at XJ and Comair are being trimmed down and all administrative functions for XJ, CZ and Comair have already been moved to MSP, it would be fairly straight forward to centralize all three W/O regional operations, and then staple the pilot list to the bottom of the DAL list, but what do I know, I am just a line pilot.
02-26-2010, 06:48 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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Satch, there isn't an Alabama one yet and I'm surprised given how tacky it is they haven't come up with an Alabama one. But I guess LSU was all over it. 
But I put in a suggestion for them to make one. You can have it for a kid or on your ER flights when Helga won't let you out:
Actually plays sound of cheering followed by the FIGHT SONG of your favorite college when flushed!
Every child loves a game. Why not turn potty training into a game that boys and girls will want to play? The Flush and Cheer Potty™ Chair lets children associate their “winning” achievements on the potty with the joy they see others experience with ballgames. Its sporting appearance and musical flush allow your child to capture the rewarding sense of accomplishment when he or she “reaches their goal.”
But I put in a suggestion for them to make one. You can have it for a kid or on your ER flights when Helga won't let you out: Actually plays sound of cheering followed by the FIGHT SONG of your favorite college when flushed!
Every child loves a game. Why not turn potty training into a game that boys and girls will want to play? The Flush and Cheer Potty™ Chair lets children associate their “winning” achievements on the potty with the joy they see others experience with ballgames. Its sporting appearance and musical flush allow your child to capture the rewarding sense of accomplishment when he or she “reaches their goal.”
02-26-2010, 06:59 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I'm not familar with other options. Can you explain, or somewhere I can read up?
Last edited by johnso29; 02-26-2010 at 07:09 AM.
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