Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-30-2010, 06:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Not to be a downer on this dreary Saturday....but the first class they are putting in the 700's has nothing to do with the furlough clause right? So that means the company sees a bigger value in a first class than having those extra 4-6 seats as a completely coach a/c.
So something happens and DAL furloughs, they don't have to change a thing with these new 70's w/first class. They have to reduce the 6 seats in some of the fleet, but is it required to be the FC seats or could they just make it like these new 70's w/FC?
I'm trying to be a glass half full guy here, but as things get played out I can see the setting up for furloughs......IF there were to be a change in the economy/war/late night tv host etc. The company is getting set up so a furlough will create as little disturbance to the traveling public as possible.
So something happens and DAL furloughs, they don't have to change a thing with these new 70's w/first class. They have to reduce the 6 seats in some of the fleet, but is it required to be the FC seats or could they just make it like these new 70's w/FC?
I'm trying to be a glass half full guy here, but as things get played out I can see the setting up for furloughs......IF there were to be a change in the economy/war/late night tv host etc. The company is getting set up so a furlough will create as little disturbance to the traveling public as possible.
01-30-2010, 06:05 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The PWA does not dictate what six seats need to be pulled. They will be coach seats for sure in the 76 seat jets. Duh! ( DO not see a need for us to worry about it. As they say, it is what it is)
The reason they are doing this FC upgrade is simple. No ROI on buying a 76 seat jet and turning a 70 in. It is easier to just pull four seats out of a 70.
The reason they are doing this FC upgrade is simple. No ROI on buying a 76 seat jet and turning a 70 in. It is easier to just pull four seats out of a 70.
01-30-2010, 07:10 AM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl,
I think there is a pretty big silent majority out there in this pilot group that feels the way I do. I'm not one to rock the boat and be very vocal in an online format whether it is here or the DALPA webboards. How many pilots post on this board and the DALPA webboard combined......100.......200 even 300? That's such a small percentage of us now that I don't know if you can draw the conclusion you have from it. I don't really see the point of making my blood pressure rise discussing shoulda, coulda, woulda's. I don't want anyone junior to me moving up a number too soon!
During our C2K contract negotiations I really believe that the fDAL pilot group would have gone on strike if the need arose. I know there has been a lot of talk deriding things that happened during the negotiations such as emptying out our lockers etc. but I know I was prepared to walk out and everyone I talked to at the time was too. I don't remember what the strike vote percentage was but it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 97+ percent.
I believe the DAL chapter of ALPA has been very pragmatic and non emotional in it's approach to DAL management. The 'Hey it's nothing personal it's business attitude.' Because of this I believe that when push comes to shove the Union has/will have credibility with management and they will take us seriously. I know the arguments that we have rolled over on various issues that have arisen such as the 76 seat scope while we were in bankruptcy and then the number of permitted 76 seaters after bankruptcy. But the key words there are 'in bankruptcy' and our clout was seriously compromised at the time. Before anyone gets in an uproar, I didn't agree with it then and certainly don't now.
The big question now is our ablilty to negotiate under the RLA and whether we will have the capability to go on strike if we have to. We will have seriously diminished leverage if it is preordained by the government that we cannot strike. This is where national and our government contacts come into play. We'll just have to see what happens here. Personally I'm of the mind to "walk softly and carry a big stick." I'd rather go into negotiations with the attitude that either we get a fair contract or we're going on strike rather than go thru motions of a work slowdown or whatever else is dreamt up. Don't get me wrong, I'll do what it takes but the above is my preference. To me it's a clean and elegant strategy and avoids any lawsuit/injunction by management. Although any lawsuit/injunction they pursue will only seve to unify the pilot group more.
Anyway you now have an insight to my thought processes and why I don't normally get involved in some of the discussions in this thread and also why I think the way I do. Plus, alot of the discussions go completely over my head and/or make my brain hurt!! This is probably the longest post I've written and proofed so hopefully the spelling is correct but I can't attest to the grammer!!!
DennyCraaaaane!
I think there is a pretty big silent majority out there in this pilot group that feels the way I do. I'm not one to rock the boat and be very vocal in an online format whether it is here or the DALPA webboards. How many pilots post on this board and the DALPA webboard combined......100.......200 even 300? That's such a small percentage of us now that I don't know if you can draw the conclusion you have from it. I don't really see the point of making my blood pressure rise discussing shoulda, coulda, woulda's. I don't want anyone junior to me moving up a number too soon!
During our C2K contract negotiations I really believe that the fDAL pilot group would have gone on strike if the need arose. I know there has been a lot of talk deriding things that happened during the negotiations such as emptying out our lockers etc. but I know I was prepared to walk out and everyone I talked to at the time was too. I don't remember what the strike vote percentage was but it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 97+ percent.
I believe the DAL chapter of ALPA has been very pragmatic and non emotional in it's approach to DAL management. The 'Hey it's nothing personal it's business attitude.' Because of this I believe that when push comes to shove the Union has/will have credibility with management and they will take us seriously. I know the arguments that we have rolled over on various issues that have arisen such as the 76 seat scope while we were in bankruptcy and then the number of permitted 76 seaters after bankruptcy. But the key words there are 'in bankruptcy' and our clout was seriously compromised at the time. Before anyone gets in an uproar, I didn't agree with it then and certainly don't now.
The big question now is our ablilty to negotiate under the RLA and whether we will have the capability to go on strike if we have to. We will have seriously diminished leverage if it is preordained by the government that we cannot strike. This is where national and our government contacts come into play. We'll just have to see what happens here. Personally I'm of the mind to "walk softly and carry a big stick." I'd rather go into negotiations with the attitude that either we get a fair contract or we're going on strike rather than go thru motions of a work slowdown or whatever else is dreamt up. Don't get me wrong, I'll do what it takes but the above is my preference. To me it's a clean and elegant strategy and avoids any lawsuit/injunction by management. Although any lawsuit/injunction they pursue will only seve to unify the pilot group more.
Anyway you now have an insight to my thought processes and why I don't normally get involved in some of the discussions in this thread and also why I think the way I do. Plus, alot of the discussions go completely over my head and/or make my brain hurt!!
This is probably the longest post I've written and proofed so hopefully the spelling is correct but I can't attest to the grammer!!!DennyCraaaaane!
Dragging out our new contract past 2012 in a time where inflation will very likely be eating away at our already below industry pay structure will be such a tremendous insult to this pilot group that many folks will be calling for burning the house down. Given our unprecedented level of cooperation with management, this is not asking too much.
Section 6 must open this year. Management's response to this will be very telling. I for one, want to know their response.
Carl
01-30-2010, 07:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Carl,
During our C2K contract negotiations I really believe that the fDAL pilot group would have gone on strike if the need arose. I know there has been a lot of talk deriding things that happened during the negotiations such as emptying out our lockers etc. but I know I was prepared to walk out and everyone I talked to at the time was too. I don't remember what the strike vote percentage was but it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 97+ percent.
DennyCraaaaane!
During our C2K contract negotiations I really believe that the fDAL pilot group would have gone on strike if the need arose. I know there has been a lot of talk deriding things that happened during the negotiations such as emptying out our lockers etc. but I know I was prepared to walk out and everyone I talked to at the time was too. I don't remember what the strike vote percentage was but it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 97+ percent.
DennyCraaaaane!
To piggyback on Denny's comments, I would agree that DAL-S pilots were pretty fired up for Contract 2000. However, Contract 2000 followed a very concessionary contract referred to as POS 96. That contract was approved by the DAL-S pilots by a substantial (and surprisingly large) majority.
As Contract 2000 was being negotiated it was interesting that very few pilots would own up to the fact that they had voted for POS 96.
That lead me to the conclusion that DAL-S pilots in general talk tough in the cockpit, the crewroom and on Internet forums; but they vote in the privacy of their homes. There the thought process is: "It's not that bad a contract. I've got a mortgage payments, car payments, etc. I can't afford to go on strike..." followed by a "yes" vote.
I can't recall a single instance of DAL-S pilots rejecting something the MEC endorsed. If our MEC continues lowering expectations, it'll be a very tough fight to get a good contract.
01-30-2010, 07:24 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Once again, I'm talking about the INCREASE in our wages, NOT our entire pilot payroll costs. Are we through talking past each other now?
I'll say it again: If management needs below industry pilot pay in order to compete, that is an indication of management ineffectiveness - and thus, is NOT OUR PROBLEM!
Carl
01-30-2010, 07:29 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl,
To piggyback on Denny's comments, I would agree that DAL-S pilots were pretty fired up for Contract 2000. However, Contract 2000 followed a very concessionary contract referred to as POS 96. That contract was approved by the DAL-S pilots by a substantial (and surprisingly large) majority.
As Contract 2000 was being negotiated it was interesting that very few pilots would own up to the fact that they had voted for POS 96.
That lead me to the conclusion that DAL-S pilots in general talk tough in the cockpit, the crewroom and on Internet forums; but they vote in the privacy of their homes. There the thought process is: "It's not that bad a contract. I've got a mortgage payments, car payments, etc. I can't afford to go on strike..." followed by a "yes" vote.
To piggyback on Denny's comments, I would agree that DAL-S pilots were pretty fired up for Contract 2000. However, Contract 2000 followed a very concessionary contract referred to as POS 96. That contract was approved by the DAL-S pilots by a substantial (and surprisingly large) majority.
As Contract 2000 was being negotiated it was interesting that very few pilots would own up to the fact that they had voted for POS 96.
That lead me to the conclusion that DAL-S pilots in general talk tough in the cockpit, the crewroom and on Internet forums; but they vote in the privacy of their homes. There the thought process is: "It's not that bad a contract. I've got a mortgage payments, car payments, etc. I can't afford to go on strike..." followed by a "yes" vote.
Carl
01-30-2010, 07:39 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Fortunately we have the best two teams amongst our peer group sitting on both sides of the table. I am hoping Richard Anderson sticks around through Contract 2012. Bastian's involvement in our bankruptcy could color contract negotiations and add unnecessary issues, polarizing the sides immediately.
Not looking forward to Interest Based Bargaining. Hope we avoid that mess entirely.
... and you want creepy? Can't resist the man'stache eh?
Somehow late 1970's sexy & the shower seems to go with CG calculators, dial a flap, poles & ladders, and chart holders that burst into flames.
01-30-2010, 07:40 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Total cost of us is about the 9-10% of revenue Carl. Not the increase. I increase that you are suggesting is about 4-5% for total restoration. I agree that 5% is minuscule.
01-30-2010, 07:54 AM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
01-30-2010, 07:58 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,235
Schwanker
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