Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-23-2010, 04:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
The following post was posted a couple of days ago on the DALPA Forum. I have permission from the poster to share it here. I took out the first two sentences because they contain the names of two individuals. In any case, I think this adds some important perspective to where we find ourselves these days. Keep in mind that the poster is not suggesting this as an actual model for calculating pay. It is intended to put our pay into perspective. Enjoy...
We all should know that pilot pay is but one component of the company's overall expenses and that achieving profitability is a complex goal for management. Nevertheless, I want to address another legitimate perspective on current and future pilot pay that deserves serious attention, namely the perspective gained by considering how much each passenger actually pays the pilots who safely fly them to their destinations. Shoot me down here - or agree - that this is a legitimate perspective we should be pushing more publicly. Whatever your response is if it's thoughtful I welcome it.
I fly captain on MD-88's and MD-90's. For argument purposes let's say my average seat count is 145 passengers. I'm sure somebody has the average load factor for these narrow body aircraft, but it looked pretty high to me in 2009. If it was 80%, then the average number of passengers on board an MD-88/90 was 116.
If every passenger with this load factor directly paid me $1.30/hour that would have covered my $150/hour 2009 wage. We have various employee benefits, and credit hours that are not directly productive, so ballpark we could probably agree $.70/hour more might cover those extra costs? So if the load factor is 80% and every passenger pays the captain $2/hour (and the FO $1.50/hour), then we're talking $3.50/hour going to both pilots of an MD88/90. Our legs probably average two hours.
We should all think about this for a few moments. Passengers pay hundreds, usually many hundreds of dollars per leg to fly on our jets. If my arithmetic is accurate it means passengers pay narrow body captains and their FO's about $7 total of their fare for a typical two hour flight - a very small percentage of their ticket cost. If this is true, how is it that a minimum cost of living pilot pay raise in any economic environment hasn't been demanded by DALPA and cannot be accommodated by management? How is it that the pay cuts we endured were not defended against in such visible and defensible terms? For management to pay both an MD-88/90 captain and the FO 116 more dollars/hour each - and again cover our credit hour costs and retirement benefits - all they'd have to do is directly pass on to passengers a $3.50/hour increase in the price of their ticket. $150, plus $116, would be $266/hour for MD-88/90 captains. And over $200/hour for FO's. Now we're beginning to talk real pay and DC retirement fund restoration.
More perspective. I tip the van driver two bucks if he takes me anywhere but to an airport hotel. I tip the Sky Cap a buck a bag to check my bags and family in at the curb - four bucks for about four minutes of his life. If every passenger tipped me a buck a minute - $120 for the two hour flight - times 116 passengers - that would be $13,920 for one flight. I don't expect anyone to tip, or pay, pilots like they might tip Sky Caps, but how about another $3.50/hour as eminently reasonable?
If polled, how many passengers would complain that paying a total of $10.50 instead of the current $7 they're paying to the two pilots for their two hour trip would be an unfair burden? How many of our passengers, the overwhelming majority of whom have a nice word to say to us upon deplaning, would say we don't deserve it? How many would be shocked to hear how little of their ticket price flows to us? I know the personal investment in our piloting skill sets we've all made - the under pressure training, flying experience, sound judgment - and our unique career terminating risks from loss of medical or FAA certificate action (not to mention being the continual focus of terrorist attack) - everything we bring to the air travel experience at Delta is worth far more to the passengers than they're currently paying directly to us. I'd like to see what they pay to pilots broken out on their ticket stub, just like taxes, fuel surcharges and whatever else is listed so they can know exactly what they're paying us. I believe most passengers would agree they could and should pay their pilots more. Especially when it would take such a small increase in a ticket's price going directly to pilots to offset the historically crushing effects of inflation combined with the recent successful attacks by managements in bankruptcy to gut pilot standards of living.
There was never not a time to publicly, loudly and longly make the it's a very small percentage of your ticket price argument to the world, but the time is especially ripe now to set the stage for truly restorative pay raises in the near future - with the abusive pay and work rules at the so-called regionals getting congressional scrutiny and media coverage and people widely appreciating split second life-saving performances of major airline pilots like Sully and Skiles.
As always during my 19 years here at Delta I'm left wondering why this argument has never been made. It hasn't been made to us by our union in rallying support for a strike vote. Its never been made to my knowledge in the public arena. How does management get away with ever (Ron Allen, Ed Bastion in bankruptcy court) saying we don't merit our pay? Or get away with saying they can't pay any more - not even a small 1-2 percentage increase in an average ticket price that could flow to pilots and quickly get us back to 1987 purchasing power wages? How come DALPA - my labor union not just my schedule with safety association - never frames the argument in such simple, easy to fathom, dollars directly paid to pilots by passengers terms? Never slaps down demonstrably hollow management claims with simple arithmetic? How about a few full page ads in USA today informing the flying pubic how little they actually pay to their pilots when management again tells us we cost too much in 2012 and restoring the profession is out of the question?
The difference between a $100,000 annual raise for all Delta pilots (about the amount we each lost since 2004) and what we're making now is less than the price of two fancy cups of coffee many of our passengers think nothing of buying before boarding a Delta airplane. That, my fellow pilots, is flat out amazing to me. Pilot pay as a percentage of ticket price should inform us, our management and the flying public as we move forward to a deservedly brighter future.
We all should know that pilot pay is but one component of the company's overall expenses and that achieving profitability is a complex goal for management. Nevertheless, I want to address another legitimate perspective on current and future pilot pay that deserves serious attention, namely the perspective gained by considering how much each passenger actually pays the pilots who safely fly them to their destinations. Shoot me down here - or agree - that this is a legitimate perspective we should be pushing more publicly. Whatever your response is if it's thoughtful I welcome it.
I fly captain on MD-88's and MD-90's. For argument purposes let's say my average seat count is 145 passengers. I'm sure somebody has the average load factor for these narrow body aircraft, but it looked pretty high to me in 2009. If it was 80%, then the average number of passengers on board an MD-88/90 was 116.
If every passenger with this load factor directly paid me $1.30/hour that would have covered my $150/hour 2009 wage. We have various employee benefits, and credit hours that are not directly productive, so ballpark we could probably agree $.70/hour more might cover those extra costs? So if the load factor is 80% and every passenger pays the captain $2/hour (and the FO $1.50/hour), then we're talking $3.50/hour going to both pilots of an MD88/90. Our legs probably average two hours.
We should all think about this for a few moments. Passengers pay hundreds, usually many hundreds of dollars per leg to fly on our jets. If my arithmetic is accurate it means passengers pay narrow body captains and their FO's about $7 total of their fare for a typical two hour flight - a very small percentage of their ticket cost. If this is true, how is it that a minimum cost of living pilot pay raise in any economic environment hasn't been demanded by DALPA and cannot be accommodated by management? How is it that the pay cuts we endured were not defended against in such visible and defensible terms? For management to pay both an MD-88/90 captain and the FO 116 more dollars/hour each - and again cover our credit hour costs and retirement benefits - all they'd have to do is directly pass on to passengers a $3.50/hour increase in the price of their ticket. $150, plus $116, would be $266/hour for MD-88/90 captains. And over $200/hour for FO's. Now we're beginning to talk real pay and DC retirement fund restoration.
More perspective. I tip the van driver two bucks if he takes me anywhere but to an airport hotel. I tip the Sky Cap a buck a bag to check my bags and family in at the curb - four bucks for about four minutes of his life. If every passenger tipped me a buck a minute - $120 for the two hour flight - times 116 passengers - that would be $13,920 for one flight. I don't expect anyone to tip, or pay, pilots like they might tip Sky Caps, but how about another $3.50/hour as eminently reasonable?
If polled, how many passengers would complain that paying a total of $10.50 instead of the current $7 they're paying to the two pilots for their two hour trip would be an unfair burden? How many of our passengers, the overwhelming majority of whom have a nice word to say to us upon deplaning, would say we don't deserve it? How many would be shocked to hear how little of their ticket price flows to us? I know the personal investment in our piloting skill sets we've all made - the under pressure training, flying experience, sound judgment - and our unique career terminating risks from loss of medical or FAA certificate action (not to mention being the continual focus of terrorist attack) - everything we bring to the air travel experience at Delta is worth far more to the passengers than they're currently paying directly to us. I'd like to see what they pay to pilots broken out on their ticket stub, just like taxes, fuel surcharges and whatever else is listed so they can know exactly what they're paying us. I believe most passengers would agree they could and should pay their pilots more. Especially when it would take such a small increase in a ticket's price going directly to pilots to offset the historically crushing effects of inflation combined with the recent successful attacks by managements in bankruptcy to gut pilot standards of living.
There was never not a time to publicly, loudly and longly make the it's a very small percentage of your ticket price argument to the world, but the time is especially ripe now to set the stage for truly restorative pay raises in the near future - with the abusive pay and work rules at the so-called regionals getting congressional scrutiny and media coverage and people widely appreciating split second life-saving performances of major airline pilots like Sully and Skiles.
As always during my 19 years here at Delta I'm left wondering why this argument has never been made. It hasn't been made to us by our union in rallying support for a strike vote. Its never been made to my knowledge in the public arena. How does management get away with ever (Ron Allen, Ed Bastion in bankruptcy court) saying we don't merit our pay? Or get away with saying they can't pay any more - not even a small 1-2 percentage increase in an average ticket price that could flow to pilots and quickly get us back to 1987 purchasing power wages? How come DALPA - my labor union not just my schedule with safety association - never frames the argument in such simple, easy to fathom, dollars directly paid to pilots by passengers terms? Never slaps down demonstrably hollow management claims with simple arithmetic? How about a few full page ads in USA today informing the flying pubic how little they actually pay to their pilots when management again tells us we cost too much in 2012 and restoring the profession is out of the question?
The difference between a $100,000 annual raise for all Delta pilots (about the amount we each lost since 2004) and what we're making now is less than the price of two fancy cups of coffee many of our passengers think nothing of buying before boarding a Delta airplane. That, my fellow pilots, is flat out amazing to me. Pilot pay as a percentage of ticket price should inform us, our management and the flying public as we move forward to a deservedly brighter future.
IMO we are worth and deserve more than what we are currently making. Keep in mind logic has nothing to do with our pay, management will keep every penny they can from us. It is after all their job to do so. It's DALPA's job to get every penny they can for us. Just hope DALPA realizes that management won't give us one penny more than what we demand.
01-23-2010, 04:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,105
Free Bird:
I agree with you; however, we must convince other pilot groups that they are worth more as well. If there's a pay difference among competing companies, that will not work.
We can only hope that the pilots of SWA keep pushing the salaries higher and the jetBlues of aviation keep trying to match us and them.
I agree with you; however, we must convince other pilot groups that they are worth more as well. If there's a pay difference among competing companies, that will not work.
We can only hope that the pilots of SWA keep pushing the salaries higher and the jetBlues of aviation keep trying to match us and them.
01-23-2010, 04:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
01-23-2010, 05:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,105
I'm thinking an operational profit of $10 million. But factoring in mark downs and other financial losses, we lose $400 million for the quarter.
Our total debt is around $12.5 BILLION DOLLARS (Dr. Evil Voice)
Our total debt is around $12.5 BILLION DOLLARS (Dr. Evil Voice)
01-23-2010, 05:15 AM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,742
At first I thought this was a well done photoshop, but it's real!
Only $19.95 - the text is from sportys.com
Sporty's® invites you to come along as we examine the professional and personal qualities required of a great airline captain. The whole flight crew, especially the captain, can affect a profound and lasting impression on an airline's passengers. In addition to flying ability, a captain's appearance, mannerisms and public relations skills can and should be used to provide the quality service today's airline passengers demand. In cooperation with Delta Air Lines, Sporty's follows Captain George Elbel through his typical duties preparing for a flight. From his armchair the night before to his responsibilities after the flight, go behind the scenes to discover how an experienced captain smoothly coordinates all elements of a flight, balancing safety, passenger comfort and a demanding schedule. Not just for future airline captains, this DVD Video can be helpful to current captains looking to improve service to their crew, their airline and most of all, their passengers. Ideal for anyone interested in a more intimate look at an airline flying career and an excellent way to give youngsters a realistic view of life in the captain's seat. (45 min.)
Only $19.95 - the text is from sportys.com
Sporty's® invites you to come along as we examine the professional and personal qualities required of a great airline captain. The whole flight crew, especially the captain, can affect a profound and lasting impression on an airline's passengers. In addition to flying ability, a captain's appearance, mannerisms and public relations skills can and should be used to provide the quality service today's airline passengers demand. In cooperation with Delta Air Lines, Sporty's follows Captain George Elbel through his typical duties preparing for a flight. From his armchair the night before to his responsibilities after the flight, go behind the scenes to discover how an experienced captain smoothly coordinates all elements of a flight, balancing safety, passenger comfort and a demanding schedule. Not just for future airline captains, this DVD Video can be helpful to current captains looking to improve service to their crew, their airline and most of all, their passengers. Ideal for anyone interested in a more intimate look at an airline flying career and an excellent way to give youngsters a realistic view of life in the captain's seat. (45 min.)
01-23-2010, 05:22 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
01-23-2010, 05:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
The sad fact is so far Delta's performance is lagging pre merger performance relative to the rest of the airline industry. Management has to hail the merger as a great success and it may yet turn out to be true but so far it has not produced the revenue and improvements management claimed. The CEO of CAL nailed it when he said they see no need to merge after looking at the financials from the Delta NWA merger. While worldwide yields are down 10 to 20 percent the yields in the far east are down almost 40 percent. This is killing the financial performance of the airline. Lets hope the far east recovers soon or Delta may well be looking at a second chapter 11 filing in 3 to 5 years.
01-23-2010, 05:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,575
Carl,
Don't be so thin skinned. I was not trying to demean anyone, just telling the truth. There was no action by the WB pilots. It was the 9 and 320 crews(the bulk of our domestic operation) that were being abused so much that they had a meltdown. Again, I was on the whale and the big improvements that we rcvd in this timeframe(thanks to GB) were free internet in NRT, free gym in NRT and 30%off at the sportsbar.
Don't be so thin skinned. I was not trying to demean anyone, just telling the truth. There was no action by the WB pilots. It was the 9 and 320 crews(the bulk of our domestic operation) that were being abused so much that they had a meltdown. Again, I was on the whale and the big improvements that we rcvd in this timeframe(thanks to GB) were free internet in NRT, free gym in NRT and 30%off at the sportsbar.
01-23-2010, 05:42 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
This post does an excellent job of pointing out the small percentage of the price of a ticket that the pilots actually cost. There are other cost that need to be factored in. Items such as medical benefits, retirement cost (I think 13-14% now) sick leave etc all add cost to the above equation.
IMO we are worth and deserve more than what we are currently making. Keep in mind logic has nothing to do with our pay, management will keep every penny they can from us. It is after all their job to do so. It's DALPA's job to get every penny they can for us. Just hope DALPA realizes that management won't give us one penny more than what we demand.
IMO we are worth and deserve more than what we are currently making. Keep in mind logic has nothing to do with our pay, management will keep every penny they can from us. It is after all their job to do so. It's DALPA's job to get every penny they can for us. Just hope DALPA realizes that management won't give us one penny more than what we demand.
"If every passenger with this load factor directly paid me $1.30/hour that would have covered my $150/hour 2009 wage. We have various employee benefits, and credit hours that are not directly productive, so ballpark we could probably agree $.70/hour more might cover those extra costs?"
01-23-2010, 05:54 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl,
Don't be so thin skinned. I was not trying to demean anyone, just telling the truth. There was no action by the WB pilots. It was the 9 and 320 crews(the bulk of our domestic operation) that were being abused so much that they had a meltdown. Again, I was on the whale and the big improvements that we rcvd in this timeframe(thanks to GB) were free internet in NRT, free gym in NRT and 30%off at the sportsbar.
Don't be so thin skinned. I was not trying to demean anyone, just telling the truth. There was no action by the WB pilots. It was the 9 and 320 crews(the bulk of our domestic operation) that were being abused so much that they had a meltdown. Again, I was on the whale and the big improvements that we rcvd in this timeframe(thanks to GB) were free internet in NRT, free gym in NRT and 30%off at the sportsbar.
Wise up.
Carl
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