Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-19-2010, 01:58 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I couldn't agree more. The public's general perception of the profession is skewed. Management's perception of our value is skewed.
Moreover, the public's perception of what is appropriate to pay for intercontinental and international travel is INCREDIBLY skewed.
Baggage fees are a brilliant move in a business sense. I know for a fact that departure times have not really been altered by the first round of baggage fees being instituted. The price hike may cause a blip, but I really doubt it.
It allows airlines to firm up some leaky RASM, while not effecting demand because the price-sensitive consumer does not see the costs in online shopping for tickets. Fuel surcharges are similar as well, plus it keeps corporate clients from not paying the increased carrying costs associated with fuel because they buy miles in bulk...and if not for the surcharge would be getting a discount on average ticket prices during extremely high fuel price cycles.
Moreover, the public's perception of what is appropriate to pay for intercontinental and international travel is INCREDIBLY skewed.
Baggage fees are a brilliant move in a business sense. I know for a fact that departure times have not really been altered by the first round of baggage fees being instituted. The price hike may cause a blip, but I really doubt it.
It allows airlines to firm up some leaky RASM, while not effecting demand because the price-sensitive consumer does not see the costs in online shopping for tickets. Fuel surcharges are similar as well, plus it keeps corporate clients from not paying the increased carrying costs associated with fuel because they buy miles in bulk...and if not for the surcharge would be getting a discount on average ticket prices during extremely high fuel price cycles.
I hate the pricing environment we live it. Problem is, it is what it is. It sucks, comes across as cheap, but in the end makes a lot of money for the company. A lot more than almost any initiative we can do. (Project APU et al) They all effect bottom line, but adding fees for baggage, headsets, snacks, sky club, miles redemption etc adds money to the coffers. In this environment where almost everyone buys a ticket off the first page of your on-line ticket brokerages, it is in the end the best way to increase RASM.
If consumers change their buying habits, go away from this type of pricing and ancillary charges, the market will adapt. To a money guy this stuff is working. The proof is in the numbers. I cuss every time I pay for a bag, but it does not stop me from packing one.
01-19-2010, 02:03 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Actually, over 1800 of them make over $170k/yr, but that's a poor argument to make. They're vastly overpaid, particularly when they're compared to their equivalent counterparts in any other western nation. Paid more than US military generals, more than US doctors, etc. It's madness, but certainly a testament to how a broken union can reconstitute itself and hold the US taxpayer and their deep pockets hostage. Good for them, I suppose. Nice to see one union group kick butt, I guess.
Unfortunately, while I certainly think that pilots should make more, the marketplace sure doesn't seem to think so. Decades of "education" campaigns haven't had any effect, nor is it a matter of "getting the message out". With a median US household income of only about $50,000, pilots who make $75-$120k/year seem pretty well off to most.
Doubly so with an unemployment rate of at least 10%, probably significantly higher.
Anyway, the airlines have to start making money in a big way again first, because until they're profitable, it's kind of a moot discussion.
Unfortunately, while I certainly think that pilots should make more, the marketplace sure doesn't seem to think so. Decades of "education" campaigns haven't had any effect, nor is it a matter of "getting the message out". With a median US household income of only about $50,000, pilots who make $75-$120k/year seem pretty well off to most.
Doubly so with an unemployment rate of at least 10%, probably significantly higher.
Anyway, the airlines have to start making money in a big way again first, because until they're profitable, it's kind of a moot discussion.
01-19-2010, 02:10 PM
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
the new ATCers arent making anything close to 170k. They've been getting stripped down also. fwiw
01-19-2010, 02:14 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: The Beginnings
Posts: 1,317
Seriously. You know, I never thought I'd say it, but if I could get in the "way-back machine", I'd structure my aviation career goals around getting a federal pilot job.
Time was, government jobs were comparatively poorly paid, but had good retirements. Increasingly, they're HIGHLY paid, have unbelievable benefits, and early gold-plated retirements.
The free market has morphed into a place for suckers who like lower wages, fewer benefits, NO guaranteed retirement . . . but plenty of taxes to pay for their government equivalents benefits.
(Maybe I need to turn off FoxNews and go drink a few beers, eh?
)
01-19-2010, 02:22 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Seriously. You know, I never thought I'd say it, but if I could get in the "way-back machine", I'd structure my aviation career goals around getting a federal pilot job.
Time was, government jobs were comparatively poorly paid, but had good retirements. Increasingly, they're HIGHLY paid, have unbelievable benefits, and early gold-plated retirements.
The free market has morphed into a place for suckers who like lower wages, fewer benefits, NO guaranteed retirement . . . but plenty of taxes to pay for their government equivalents benefits.
(Maybe I need to turn off FoxNews and go drink a few beers, eh? )
Time was, government jobs were comparatively poorly paid, but had good retirements. Increasingly, they're HIGHLY paid, have unbelievable benefits, and early gold-plated retirements.
The free market has morphed into a place for suckers who like lower wages, fewer benefits, NO guaranteed retirement . . . but plenty of taxes to pay for their government equivalents benefits.
(Maybe I need to turn off FoxNews and go drink a few beers, eh?
)I just turned it off. Time for a little TV with the Mrs before Mr Mom's dinner is ready.
01-19-2010, 02:34 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
how about those Spanish ATC guys making around half a million... and in some case OVER one million dollars a year..... yikes....
01-19-2010, 02:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Actually, over 1800 of them make over $170k/yr, but that's a poor argument to make. They're vastly overpaid, particularly when they're compared to their equivalent counterparts in any other western nation. Paid more than US military generals, more than US government doctors, government lawyers, etc. It's madness, but certainly a testament to how a broken union can reconstitute itself and hold the US taxpayer and their deep pockets hostage. Good for them, I suppose. Nice to see one union group kick butt, I guess.
Unfortunately, while I certainly think that pilots should make more, the marketplace sure doesn't seem to think so. .
Unfortunately, while I certainly think that pilots should make more, the marketplace sure doesn't seem to think so. .
I'm not an expert on making good arguments.
All I can do is point out professions where people make more than us with less education and skill. It, to me is unfair. But, I understand supply and demand and the free market. So, next time I will make an apples to apples comparison. But, I thought your point was that passengers would be cheesed if we made $250K/year. To which I was saying that patients don't care how much doctors or radiation therapist make when their lives are being operated on saved (I don't think they blame the highly paid doctors when their premiums go up). And passengers don't care what air traffic controllers make when they are directing us around.
That's all I was saying. Sorry, if I misunderstood your point. I just want to get paid.
New K
01-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: west coast wannabe
Posts: 815
And remember what Johnny used to say, "When I fly, I always take Delta… That’s because they pay their pilots the most money… You don’t want to fly with unhappy pilots.”
How times have changed, for better, for worse. Which one, you decide.
How times have changed, for better, for worse. Which one, you decide.
01-19-2010, 03:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
Posts: 978
01-19-2010, 03:15 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
That is the problem when professionals do it their job safely time after time. It becomes routine. What people need to remember is that "qualified" professionals make their job look routine and on some level easy. Many could say that Neil Peart makes percussion look like an everyman's profession, but its not......
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