Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-11-2010, 05:35 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
We have been bent over for the last 7 years. We are still bent over.
Every paycheck we cash is a new reaming.
Our pay and benefits have been obliterated since the 2000 contract.
We are becoming kinda like "Stockholm hostages". We've been savaged and abused for so long that we've become accustomed to it and now we voluntarily bend over whenever management walks into the room and actually thank them for allowing us a dab of Vaseline. Inexplicably, we wish for their success even as they abuse us.
The real danger that worries me is that too many Delta pilots have learned to accept our current lower standard of living as the "new normal" for major airline pilots. I fear we're going to forget that this is a bankruptcy contract and its going to take some HUGE restoration just to get back to where we were.
We must not allow that to occur. We have to remember.
That's the real reason I react so strongly to some forum posters who like to point out how good we have it compared to USAir or whatever and who seem to think the industry has changed forever and have surrendered to the idea that pilots will never again be paid as true "professionals" on par with top doctors and lawyers, etc.
Sometimes the tone of this thread scares me. We've begun to measure the success of our careers based on the accomplishments of the corporation. We facilitate and cheer for the successful DAL/NWA merger. We sign and applaud the AF Joint Venture. We give our full support to the Japanese thing. We lobby our Senators and Congressmen on behalf of management's LaGuardia slot swap. And on and on. But meanwhile, we are still working for bankruptcy wages.
We've been "laying the groundwork for a sustainable business plan" for about 7 or 8 years now.
Its time to ask for something in return.
Every paycheck we cash is a new reaming.
Our pay and benefits have been obliterated since the 2000 contract.
We are becoming kinda like "Stockholm hostages". We've been savaged and abused for so long that we've become accustomed to it and now we voluntarily bend over whenever management walks into the room and actually thank them for allowing us a dab of Vaseline. Inexplicably, we wish for their success even as they abuse us.
The real danger that worries me is that too many Delta pilots have learned to accept our current lower standard of living as the "new normal" for major airline pilots. I fear we're going to forget that this is a bankruptcy contract and its going to take some HUGE restoration just to get back to where we were.
We must not allow that to occur. We have to remember.
That's the real reason I react so strongly to some forum posters who like to point out how good we have it compared to USAir or whatever and who seem to think the industry has changed forever and have surrendered to the idea that pilots will never again be paid as true "professionals" on par with top doctors and lawyers, etc.
Sometimes the tone of this thread scares me. We've begun to measure the success of our careers based on the accomplishments of the corporation. We facilitate and cheer for the successful DAL/NWA merger. We sign and applaud the AF Joint Venture. We give our full support to the Japanese thing. We lobby our Senators and Congressmen on behalf of management's LaGuardia slot swap. And on and on. But meanwhile, we are still working for bankruptcy wages.
We've been "laying the groundwork for a sustainable business plan" for about 7 or 8 years now.
Its time to ask for something in return.
Check;
Who pays our paycheck? Who is still losing billions a year? Yep, one in the same.
I agree that the company does not need to make billions to pay us what we are worth, but they cannot lose billions either. They need to create a business plan that can survive in this type of competitive market. I have looked at these JV's with our a morsel of personal agenda. Here is what I see:
First, I would love it if we could just fly all of the routes and not have any JV's but in this day and age, that is just a dream and will never happen. So how do we sit their and trap as many of the customers that we are aiming to trap? Easy JV's.
AF-KLM is a historic type of business and Pilots Association type of deal. It involves three unions and three business entities. It is making 12 billion dollars in revenue a year. Yes, we could have made some of our premium revenue with out them, but nothing close to what we are making now. That in the end is good for the business, and should be good for us.
I would like to take it one step farther than the AF deal and make the company pay us a percentage of the revenue for agreeing to the terms of the JV.
Back to the AF deal. We have three (actually four if you include the second pilot union at AF) pilot unions that have stuck a deal to divide the North Atlantic pie up. We got just better than half that growth. Not bad, not great, but better than the other three groups. ( Perspective, not what I want here) When the market grows I bet we see some previous or current routes flown by them but over half have to be flown by us. It is inclusive scope and I give our MEC kudos for getting that type of language.
Fast forward to the JAL deal. Two companies and fighting for one company who has the unwavering backing of a government that no matter how dire the situation is will not lose face for the Japanese people. Ugly, not exactly fair? Yep, but it is what it is.
With that in mind, lets look at what we as a business and we as an association need to be mindful of.
First, Japan and the US just signed an Open-Skies Agreement that is anything but open. It is one sided, and our Fifth Freedom Rights are basically worthless. As an association we have wording in our PWA that states how many slots have to operate by us, but the company many have to abandon them if we do not gain a Domestic Japanese business partner. Em are the ugly facts. That for you and I translates in to no hiring, loss of jobs and probably a few furlough. Not going for shock value here, just reality.
Second, the Japanese economy is second only to ours, and the Chinese economy will be the largest in the next ten years, so it is very mindful of a pilot union to realize that we need to connect all of this premium cargo and passenger traffic with a domestic airline. DAL needs JAL more than JAL needs us.
I hope that we do not have to give away the farm, and from what I am seeing this deal will be really good in terms of long term sustainable growth in the form of seats for the pilots of Delta Air Lines. If we are successful in getting a partnership with an airline that is going to cut as they say they are going to cut, then I am all for it. Why? It makes business sense. When it generates money for Delta it puts our demands for overall compensation in to perspective.
Lets look at what you are stating in regards to the MEC. I am in utter agreement that we need to get better wagers, and agree with PG that we need to figure out a plan to do it. Since the no longer let pilot go in the bank much less touch the money, we need to realize that DAL needs to probably make over 35 billion a year in revenue to pay down its liabilities and pay us what we are worth. These two JV's will make that a very real possibility. I do not want to be the biggest airline, just the best and most financially successful.
I also think, that barring maybe one more airline (after JAL) in particular we should be very careful of any more JV's. We have the globe covered now. This should set the business up nicely.
In 2012 this plan that they are working on should set us up nicely to have better passenger connect options and betting pricing power than any other airline out there. That my friend equates to profit, or paying down of debt, or new aircraft purchases. That all equates to the ability to demand and receive the C2K+... that every one wants.
In the end we want the same things, but I will side with PG in the fact that we as pilots need to look at the whole pie and realize that DAL probably pays more in interest a year than they pay us. We need to pay down debt from mistakes in the past, we need to renew our fleet, and we need to have a business plan that can sustain the airline in good times and in bad. When that happens, and we were a part of it, we BETTER get compensated for our worth.
I do not disagree with you at all. I want to see us hire, make 400K a year, get 20% in our DC, have a catchup for the older guys, myself upgrade and make money, etc. It is just very hard to do that with a failed business plan.
01-11-2010, 05:37 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Well that ... and making a profit helps. We have an old saying here in the South. "You can't get blood from a turnip."
01-11-2010, 05:40 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Check;
Who pays our paycheck? Who is still losing billions a year? Yep, one in the same.
I agree that the company does not need to make billions to pay us what we are worth, but they cannot lose billions either. They need to create a business plan that can survive in this type of competitive market. I have looked at these JV's with our a morsel of personal agenda. Here is what I see:
First, I would love it if we could just fly all of the routes and not have any JV's but in this day and age, that is just a dream and will never happen. So how do we sit their and trap as many of the customers that we are aiming to trap? Easy JV's.
AF-KLM is a historic type of business and Pilots Association type of deal. It involves three unions and three business entities. It is making 12 billion dollars in revenue a year. Yes, we could have made some of our premium revenue with out them, but nothing close to what we are making now. That in the end is good for the business, and should be good for us.
I would like to take it one step farther than the AF deal and make the company pay us a percentage of the revenue for agreeing to the terms of the JV.
Back to the AF deal. We have three (actually four if you include the second pilot union at AF) pilot unions that have stuck a deal to divide the North Atlantic pie up. We got just better than half that growth. Not bad, not great, but better than the other three groups. ( Perspective, not what I want here) When the market grows I bet we see some previous or current routes flown by them but over half have to be flown by us. It is inclusive scope and I give our MEC kudos for getting that type of language.
Fast forward to the JAL deal. Two companies and fighting for one company who has the unwavering backing of a government that no matter how dire the situation is will not lose face for the Japanese people. Ugly, not exactly fair? Yep, but it is what it is.
With that in mind, lets look at what we as a business and we as an association need to be mindful of.
First, Japan and the US just signed an Open-Skies Agreement that is anything but open. It is one sided, and our Fifth Freedom Rights are basically worthless. As an association we have wording in our PWA that states how many slots have to operate by us, but the company many have to abandon them if we do not gain a Domestic Japanese business partner. Em are the ugly facts. That for you and I translates in to no hiring, loss of jobs and probably a few furlough. Not going for shock value here, just reality.
Second, the Japanese economy is second only to ours, and the Chinese economy will be the largest in the next ten years, so it is very mindful of a pilot union to realize that we need to connect all of this premium cargo and passenger traffic with a domestic airline. DAL needs JAL more than JAL needs us.
I hope that we do not have to give away the farm, and from what I am seeing this deal will be really good in terms of long term sustainable growth in the form of seats for the pilots of Delta Air Lines. If we are successful in getting a partnership with an airline that is going to cut as they say they are going to cut, then I am all for it. Why? It makes business sense. When it generates money for Delta it puts our demands for overall compensation in to perspective.
Lets look at what you are stating in regards to the MEC. I am in utter agreement that we need to get better wagers, and agree with PG that we need to figure out a plan to do it. Since the no longer let pilot go in the bank much less touch the money, we need to realize that DAL needs to probably make over 35 billion a year in revenue to pay down its liabilities and pay us what we are worth. These two JV's will make that a very real possibility. I do not want to be the biggest airline, just the best and most financially successful.
I also think, that barring maybe one more airline (after JAL) in particular we should be very careful of any more JV's. We have the globe covered now. This should set the business up nicely.
In 2012 this plan that they are working on should set us up nicely to have better passenger connect options and betting pricing power than any other airline out there. That my friend equates to profit, or paying down of debt, or new aircraft purchases. That all equates to the ability to demand and receive the C2K+... that every one wants.
In the end we want the same things, but I will side with PG in the fact that we as pilots need to look at the whole pie and realize that DAL probably pays more in interest a year than they pay us. We need to pay down debt from mistakes in the past, we need to renew our fleet, and we need to have a business plan that can sustain the airline in good times and in bad. When that happens, and we were a part of it, we BETTER get compensated for our worth.
I do not disagree with you at all. I want to see us hire, make 400K a year, get 20% in our DC, have a catchup for the older guys, myself upgrade and make money, etc. It is just very hard to do that with a failed business plan.
Who pays our paycheck? Who is still losing billions a year? Yep, one in the same.
I agree that the company does not need to make billions to pay us what we are worth, but they cannot lose billions either. They need to create a business plan that can survive in this type of competitive market. I have looked at these JV's with our a morsel of personal agenda. Here is what I see:
First, I would love it if we could just fly all of the routes and not have any JV's but in this day and age, that is just a dream and will never happen. So how do we sit their and trap as many of the customers that we are aiming to trap? Easy JV's.
AF-KLM is a historic type of business and Pilots Association type of deal. It involves three unions and three business entities. It is making 12 billion dollars in revenue a year. Yes, we could have made some of our premium revenue with out them, but nothing close to what we are making now. That in the end is good for the business, and should be good for us.
I would like to take it one step farther than the AF deal and make the company pay us a percentage of the revenue for agreeing to the terms of the JV.
Back to the AF deal. We have three (actually four if you include the second pilot union at AF) pilot unions that have stuck a deal to divide the North Atlantic pie up. We got just better than half that growth. Not bad, not great, but better than the other three groups. ( Perspective, not what I want here) When the market grows I bet we see some previous or current routes flown by them but over half have to be flown by us. It is inclusive scope and I give our MEC kudos for getting that type of language.
Fast forward to the JAL deal. Two companies and fighting for one company who has the unwavering backing of a government that no matter how dire the situation is will not lose face for the Japanese people. Ugly, not exactly fair? Yep, but it is what it is.
With that in mind, lets look at what we as a business and we as an association need to be mindful of.
First, Japan and the US just signed an Open-Skies Agreement that is anything but open. It is one sided, and our Fifth Freedom Rights are basically worthless. As an association we have wording in our PWA that states how many slots have to operate by us, but the company many have to abandon them if we do not gain a Domestic Japanese business partner. Em are the ugly facts. That for you and I translates in to no hiring, loss of jobs and probably a few furlough. Not going for shock value here, just reality.
Second, the Japanese economy is second only to ours, and the Chinese economy will be the largest in the next ten years, so it is very mindful of a pilot union to realize that we need to connect all of this premium cargo and passenger traffic with a domestic airline. DAL needs JAL more than JAL needs us.
I hope that we do not have to give away the farm, and from what I am seeing this deal will be really good in terms of long term sustainable growth in the form of seats for the pilots of Delta Air Lines. If we are successful in getting a partnership with an airline that is going to cut as they say they are going to cut, then I am all for it. Why? It makes business sense. When it generates money for Delta it puts our demands for overall compensation in to perspective.
Lets look at what you are stating in regards to the MEC. I am in utter agreement that we need to get better wagers, and agree with PG that we need to figure out a plan to do it. Since the no longer let pilot go in the bank much less touch the money, we need to realize that DAL needs to probably make over 35 billion a year in revenue to pay down its liabilities and pay us what we are worth. These two JV's will make that a very real possibility. I do not want to be the biggest airline, just the best and most financially successful.
I also think, that barring maybe one more airline (after JAL) in particular we should be very careful of any more JV's. We have the globe covered now. This should set the business up nicely.
In 2012 this plan that they are working on should set us up nicely to have better passenger connect options and betting pricing power than any other airline out there. That my friend equates to profit, or paying down of debt, or new aircraft purchases. That all equates to the ability to demand and receive the C2K+... that every one wants.
In the end we want the same things, but I will side with PG in the fact that we as pilots need to look at the whole pie and realize that DAL probably pays more in interest a year than they pay us. We need to pay down debt from mistakes in the past, we need to renew our fleet, and we need to have a business plan that can sustain the airline in good times and in bad. When that happens, and we were a part of it, we BETTER get compensated for our worth.
I do not disagree with you at all. I want to see us hire, make 400K a year, get 20% in our DC, have a catchup for the older guys, myself upgrade and make money, etc. It is just very hard to do that with a failed business plan.
Great post, acl65. Sorry to agree with you, as that will no doubt hurt your credibility.
01-11-2010, 05:42 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Dude, if you are working for MY union I want you to step into my office, because your freakin' fired.
I'll just start with AMR as an example.
Your single data point BS is not a valid argument on why we are screwed in asking for bumps in payscale.
AMR not only has higher 12yr f/o pay on a few pieces of equipment (which by my book and what they tried to teach me in business school actually means MORE to us as pilots because of the Net Present Value of money earned today and not in 20-25 years when I can hold Intl widebody capt).
Additionally, with work rules and other compensations taken into account, AMR's way ahead of us at the 'World's Biggest Airline'. They continue to have an A and B fund and 401K's (non-matching).
Oh, and they have a 73hr reserve guarantee. And I'm pretty sure their sick policy isn't as poorly conceived and executed as ours is at the moment (just an aside).
I do realize what you are trying to say. But as I stated about 1000 posts ago, we have to stop playing the role of victims. We have the ability as the World's largest pilot group to change the way we do business in negotiations for pay/compensation and work rules. And as you well know, all three of those are really the same thing because that is how the company looks at it...one set of labor costs. We need to focus as a group on our TOTAL compensation package, from lifetime potential earnings to sick leave rules to 401k contributions and reserve work rules. It all counts and it all matters.
SWAPA some time ago figured this out, and the fact that if the pay and premium pays offered allowed the airline to be more efficient and their pilot group to benefit financially from working harder...that was a good thing.
DALPA needs to continue to leverage the fact that we assisted the company in executing the smoothest and largest airline merger in the history of the world. If we can't take this opportunity as a group and execute a respectable contract the industry can look up to in every way, then the profession truly is lost.
I disagree on the negotiation piece. Our mgmt team are savvy negotiators. They realize that with the relative compliance of this group (historically), that the sooner they can negotiate and close in an average economy rather than in a booming economy (2012 and beyond more than likely)...the better off they will be.
Now back to the JAL drama, or lack thereof.
I'll just start with AMR as an example.
Your single data point BS is not a valid argument on why we are screwed in asking for bumps in payscale.
AMR not only has higher 12yr f/o pay on a few pieces of equipment (which by my book and what they tried to teach me in business school actually means MORE to us as pilots because of the Net Present Value of money earned today and not in 20-25 years when I can hold Intl widebody capt).
Additionally, with work rules and other compensations taken into account, AMR's way ahead of us at the 'World's Biggest Airline'. They continue to have an A and B fund and 401K's (non-matching).
Oh, and they have a 73hr reserve guarantee. And I'm pretty sure their sick policy isn't as poorly conceived and executed as ours is at the moment (just an aside).
I do realize what you are trying to say. But as I stated about 1000 posts ago, we have to stop playing the role of victims. We have the ability as the World's largest pilot group to change the way we do business in negotiations for pay/compensation and work rules. And as you well know, all three of those are really the same thing because that is how the company looks at it...one set of labor costs. We need to focus as a group on our TOTAL compensation package, from lifetime potential earnings to sick leave rules to 401k contributions and reserve work rules. It all counts and it all matters.
SWAPA some time ago figured this out, and the fact that if the pay and premium pays offered allowed the airline to be more efficient and their pilot group to benefit financially from working harder...that was a good thing.
DALPA needs to continue to leverage the fact that we assisted the company in executing the smoothest and largest airline merger in the history of the world. If we can't take this opportunity as a group and execute a respectable contract the industry can look up to in every way, then the profession truly is lost.
I disagree on the negotiation piece. Our mgmt team are savvy negotiators. They realize that with the relative compliance of this group (historically), that the sooner they can negotiate and close in an average economy rather than in a booming economy (2012 and beyond more than likely)...the better off they will be.
Now back to the JAL drama, or lack thereof.
As for AMR, UAUA and CAL. I want them to do well. It raises the cost or their business model to pay their pilots more. It raises the floor for us then. Only issue is places like VA that have not contract.
Also FWIW, the company gave you stock as blood money for the merger. They do not see a need to reward you any further. Ugly but true.
We want the same things. I want the bennies other have, but I also want to retire from DAL. My business mind states that to get what I want, they need to get what they want for the corporation as well. We are not the government.
I still beleive that the next major airline that goes in to CH11 will liquidate. Even the guys that keep these airlines on life support want to change the number of players. They are no longer making the same amount of money off of us as they used to. They want to work less and make more like you and I. That equates to a "thinning of the herd."
01-11-2010, 05:47 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: 764 FO
Posts: 228
I think we have to bring longevity based pay to the table. Like UPS.
Think about what a huge deal it would be for the system vis a vis commuters.
I don't have hard facts but I would wager a guess that it would eliminate 40-50% of our current commuters, if we were able to go to a longevity pay system.
Think about what a huge deal it would be for the system vis a vis commuters.
I don't have hard facts but I would wager a guess that it would eliminate 40-50% of our current commuters, if we were able to go to a longevity pay system.
Worth taking a look at, it would probably cut training costs by a lot! UPS and Fedex both have a diverse fleet and I don't know any pilots there making less than I am with 14 years here.
While I realize management has their hands full with multiple issues, we should set as a goal to have a new contract in place on the amendable date in 2012. That would send a clear message, that we (DAL & ALPA) don't want the distractions and adversarial relationship that come along with a protracted negotiation, allowing management to focus on running the airline and the employees on staying motivated and taking care of our customers at 150%. I won't hold my breath...
01-11-2010, 05:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Right hemisphere of DCFranken9's brain
Posts: 238
On another note, does anyone have any intel on when the MSP M88 base will open or if anyone has been called to go to training? Thanks
01-11-2010, 06:14 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
If I have the credibility that many state, they will see these JV's for what they are. Of course no one wants them, but in this adversarial market they are a necessary evil. ( I do not like em either as I want it all, but they provide us a unparalleled revenue stream
The only way around these is to merger with AF. Now how many of you are excited to take that one on? Just what I though, probably no one) We could get in to code shares, but that is a totally different debate.
01-11-2010, 06:21 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
We want the same things. I want the bennies other have, but I also want to retire from DAL. My business mind states that to get what I want, they need to get what they want for the corporation as well. We are not the government.
I still beleive that the next major airline that goes in to CH11 will liquidate.
I still beleive that the next major airline that goes in to CH11 will liquidate.
Airlines have been running without profits since Orville and Wilbur.
We're kinda like a public utility.
Fact is, they can pay us more without going back into Chapter 11.
Latest news says JAL won't be taking our $1 billion after all.
The company can afford to help us out a bit before 2013.
01-11-2010, 06:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 618
The cosign of premium pay is that it requires less pilots to staff an airline because the ones that are here will work more. It does cost less to pay you premium pay than it does to hire four extra pilots. Just keep that in mind.
//////////////
Also FWIW, the company gave you stock as blood money for the merger. They do not see a need to reward you any further. Ugly but true.
//////////////
Also FWIW, the company gave you stock as blood money for the merger. They do not see a need to reward you any further. Ugly but true.
The game has to end when it comes to what you can expect at the end of a 25 to 30 year career at any major. The fact is, that because we don't have steady hiring patterns...certain hire dates will benefit by millions in the final analysis over other hire dates while spending the same time employed by the airline. THIS is what we should be striving to fix.
I'm all for letting people decide if they want to fly a great deal or not that much. I'm all for letting people decide if they want to fly to a bunch of different places in the states...or one leg out and back to Europe/Asia...
But I'm not for letting one dude because, he was an 88 hire make $1.5mm more over his career than a 91 hire (random example dates mean nothing to me)...just because he didn't have to stagnate in seat progression. Its idiotic that we have our compensation structure such that your lifetime earnings at OUR airline are a dice-roll based greatly on your hire date.
And the stock wasn't blood money. We didn't sign anything other than an interim contract improvement with the equity piece. And once again, we are the World's largest pilots union now. Lets start acting like it (and that isn't to say DALPA isn't doing its job, we just became the largest so they have about 12 more months in my opinion to start throwing some weight around).
01-11-2010, 06:30 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
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