Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-06-2010, 09:27 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: A320
Posts: 74
I understand and agree.
You lose me here. While I would like my C2K rates adjusted for inflation back, reality is quite different. We got the best deal we could negotiate, including 5.6% of the company for pilots. At today's stock price, that's worth almost $600 million. That had never been done before in an airline merger, and almost everyone leaves it out of the compensation package. Also, our 777 and 73N rates are higher than American's today, and even though they never went through bankruptcy our work rules are generally better.
Agreed. They undercut us for years and made it up through growth and stock price appreciation.
You lose me here. While I would like my C2K rates adjusted for inflation back, reality is quite different. We got the best deal we could negotiate, including 5.6% of the company for pilots. At today's stock price, that's worth almost $600 million. That had never been done before in an airline merger, and almost everyone leaves it out of the compensation package. Also, our 777 and 73N rates are higher than American's today, and even though they never went through bankruptcy our work rules are generally better.
Agreed. They undercut us for years and made it up through growth and stock price appreciation.
My point is that for this truly being the largest merger put together in history the 5% raise for the DAL pilots was in my opinion a bit to small. A raise of lets say 7%, would have put the DAL pilots on par with AMR back on Jan 1st 2009. If you believe in pattern bargaining (both up and down) you need a strong competitor that we can point to to justify raises. The stock is an added bonus, however, I can tell you that is not a profit until you sell (yes worth 600 Million now only if we sell vs the 235M we got it for). I am not asking to achieve the rates that were had in the past (plus inflation), yes, I want them, but when you realize we are in a commodity business with a perishable product you have to get market rates for the service you provide. I would love to have sold my house at the 2007 bubble rate, I have to deal with today's market. My first laptop in 1996 was close to $2000. I just bought one for $450 dollars but its not the same product as in 1996. The concept and reality of today's seat was the same as in 1996.
We will still differ on NRT vs Frankfurt...... Japan has limited competition.... Pacific flying had much higher barriers to entry and much higher yields than flights crossing that Atlantic. There has always been more competitors flying over the Atlantic than Pacific. I will say that the operations are similar, but very different. I do acknowledge that globalization and technology (ie 787, A350) will change the look, and we need to adapt.
By the way, the rumor out there is 1.3 Billion that Delta is kicking in for this deal. This Trumps AMR/TPG by a little more than 200 Million. I hope this is money that is not being thrown down a rabbit hole.
01-07-2010, 04:47 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 696
From this morning's WSJ. Apparently the battle for JAL continues with the price going up. (I added the bold print.)
JANUARY 7, 2010, 8:35 A.M. ET
AMR Boosts JAL Offer
By MARIKO SANCHANTA and ATSUKO FUKASE
TOKYO—AMR Corp's American Airlines raised its offer to invest in Japan Airlines Corp. by $300 million to $1.4 billion, according to people familiar with the situation, intensifying its battle with rival Delta Air Lines Inc. to forge a partnership with the cash-strapped carrier.
American met with JAL executives Thursday morning and sweetened its offer, according to these people. Last month, American, along with members of the Oneworld airline alliance and private equity fund TPG, said it would invest $1.1 billion into JAL. A formal announcement on the increased offer is expected next week.
"We are still in negotiations with both airlines," said a JAL spokeswoman, who declined to comment on whether American had increased its offer. A Delta spokesman declined to comment. Both U.S. airlines are seeking a minority stake.
At a separate press conference Thursday, Delta President Ed Bastian suggested his company could go higher, saying "we are willing and able to raise additional capital through third-party resources." Delta and its SkyTeam airline alliance members have offered JAL a total package of about $1 billion, including $500 million in equity.
The higher offer came as investors grew increasingly concerned about JAL's prospects. Its shares dropped 9.5% Thursday to 76 yen (about 82 U.S. cents) after some of its biggest lenders proposed a major debt-for-equity swap that would dilute current shareholders.
JAL is deeply unprofitable and sitting on more than 1 trillion yen ($10.8 billion) in net debt and pension liabilities. It is pursuing an out-of-court restructuring but also studying whether it should file for the Japanese equivalent of U.S. Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. A decision is expected to come on Jan. 20, when a government turnaround agency says whether it will help rehabilitate the carrier.
Its weakness provides American and Delta with a rare opportunity to invest in the carrier and share in its access to routes in Asia, the world's fastest-growing region for aviation. JAL, a former flag carrier that was privatized in 1987, has long been a protected and prized national asset.
Tensions between American and Delta have grown as the battle has intensified in recent weeks. In 2007, JAL joined the Oneworld alliance, to which American belongs. Last year, Delta said it wanted to partner with JAL. "The notion of coming in and trying to steal someone else's alliance partner just isn't done," said one person familiar with the matter, who adds that relations between the two carriers are "pretty strained."
Mr. Bastian has repeatedly said that "the focus should be on who provides the most long-term commercial partnership, not who provides the most short-term cash."
Meanwhile, JAL's biggest commercial creditor banks have proposed a debt-forgiveness package worth over $3 billion, in a major concession designed to coax the government-funded Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corp. out of placing the struggling carrier in court-led bankruptcy protection, people familiar with the matter said. The banks have proposed a 300 billion yen debt waiver, which includes a debt-for-equity swap.
JAL's main banks are opposed to a bankruptcy filing, as they would see much of their loans to the carrier wiped out. But the ETIC views a court-led process the only way to restore taxpayers' confidence after a decade of public bailouts for JAL, as well as ensuring a transparent process
The plan was also presented to the Development Bank of Japan, the state-backed lender asked by the government in recent days to double an existing credit line to JAL to 200 billion yen to ensure its jet keep flying through spring.
According to the people familiar with the matter, the banks that submitted the proposal include Mizuho Corporate Bank, which is part of Mizuho Financial Group Inc.; Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ, part of Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc.; and Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp., a unit of Sumitomo Mitsui Financial Group Inc. They submitted the proposal after the ETIC urged the bank creditors to waive 300 billion yen in JAL loans.
JANUARY 7, 2010, 8:35 A.M. ET
AMR Boosts JAL Offer
By MARIKO SANCHANTA and ATSUKO FUKASE
TOKYO—AMR Corp's American Airlines raised its offer to invest in Japan Airlines Corp. by $300 million to $1.4 billion, according to people familiar with the situation, intensifying its battle with rival Delta Air Lines Inc. to forge a partnership with the cash-strapped carrier.
American met with JAL executives Thursday morning and sweetened its offer, according to these people. Last month, American, along with members of the Oneworld airline alliance and private equity fund TPG, said it would invest $1.1 billion into JAL. A formal announcement on the increased offer is expected next week.
"We are still in negotiations with both airlines," said a JAL spokeswoman, who declined to comment on whether American had increased its offer. A Delta spokesman declined to comment. Both U.S. airlines are seeking a minority stake.
At a separate press conference Thursday, Delta President Ed Bastian suggested his company could go higher, saying "we are willing and able to raise additional capital through third-party resources." Delta and its SkyTeam airline alliance members have offered JAL a total package of about $1 billion, including $500 million in equity.
The higher offer came as investors grew increasingly concerned about JAL's prospects. Its shares dropped 9.5% Thursday to 76 yen (about 82 U.S. cents) after some of its biggest lenders proposed a major debt-for-equity swap that would dilute current shareholders.
JAL is deeply unprofitable and sitting on more than 1 trillion yen ($10.8 billion) in net debt and pension liabilities. It is pursuing an out-of-court restructuring but also studying whether it should file for the Japanese equivalent of U.S. Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. A decision is expected to come on Jan. 20, when a government turnaround agency says whether it will help rehabilitate the carrier.
Its weakness provides American and Delta with a rare opportunity to invest in the carrier and share in its access to routes in Asia, the world's fastest-growing region for aviation. JAL, a former flag carrier that was privatized in 1987, has long been a protected and prized national asset.
Tensions between American and Delta have grown as the battle has intensified in recent weeks. In 2007, JAL joined the Oneworld alliance, to which American belongs. Last year, Delta said it wanted to partner with JAL. "The notion of coming in and trying to steal someone else's alliance partner just isn't done," said one person familiar with the matter, who adds that relations between the two carriers are "pretty strained."
Mr. Bastian has repeatedly said that "the focus should be on who provides the most long-term commercial partnership, not who provides the most short-term cash."
Meanwhile, JAL's biggest commercial creditor banks have proposed a debt-forgiveness package worth over $3 billion, in a major concession designed to coax the government-funded Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corp. out of placing the struggling carrier in court-led bankruptcy protection, people familiar with the matter said. The banks have proposed a 300 billion yen debt waiver, which includes a debt-for-equity swap.
JAL's main banks are opposed to a bankruptcy filing, as they would see much of their loans to the carrier wiped out. But the ETIC views a court-led process the only way to restore taxpayers' confidence after a decade of public bailouts for JAL, as well as ensuring a transparent process
The plan was also presented to the Development Bank of Japan, the state-backed lender asked by the government in recent days to double an existing credit line to JAL to 200 billion yen to ensure its jet keep flying through spring.
According to the people familiar with the matter, the banks that submitted the proposal include Mizuho Corporate Bank, which is part of Mizuho Financial Group Inc.; Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ, part of Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc.; and Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp., a unit of Sumitomo Mitsui Financial Group Inc. They submitted the proposal after the ETIC urged the bank creditors to waive 300 billion yen in JAL loans.
01-07-2010, 04:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Any recap of the SD pilot visit in MSP yesterday?
01-07-2010, 05:07 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 48
Model Citezen...Thanks for joining the forum! Your insight and opinions are a breath of fresh air. Keep up the good discussion!
01-07-2010, 05:10 AM
#WEDAT
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: 717a
Posts: 286
From this morning's WSJ. Apparently the battle for JAL continues with the price going up. (I added the bold print.)
JANUARY 7, 2010, 8:35 A.M. ET
AMR Boosts JAL Offer
By MARIKO SANCHANTA and ATSUKO FUKASE
TOKYO—AMR Corp's American Airlines raised its offer to invest in Japan Airlines Corp. by $300 million to $1.4 billion, according to people familiar with the situation, intensifying its battle with rival Delta Air Lines Inc. to forge a partnership with the cash-strapped carrier.
American met with JAL executives Thursday morning and sweetened its offer, according to these people. Last month, American, along with members of the Oneworld airline alliance and private equity fund TPG, said it would invest $1.1 billion into JAL. A formal announcement on the increased offer is expected next week.
"We are still in negotiations with both airlines," said a JAL spokeswoman, who declined to comment on whether American had increased its offer. A Delta spokesman declined to comment. Both U.S. airlines are seeking a minority stake.
At a separate press conference Thursday, Delta President Ed Bastian suggested his company could go higher, saying "we are willing and able to raise additional capital through third-party resources." Delta and its SkyTeam airline alliance members have offered JAL a total package of about $1 billion, including $500 million in equity.
The higher offer came as investors grew increasingly concerned about JAL's prospects. Its shares dropped 9.5% Thursday to 76 yen (about 82 U.S. cents) after some of its biggest lenders proposed a major debt-for-equity swap that would dilute current shareholders.
JAL is deeply unprofitable and sitting on more than 1 trillion yen ($10.8 billion) in net debt and pension liabilities. It is pursuing an out-of-court restructuring but also studying whether it should file for the Japanese equivalent of U.S. Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. A decision is expected to come on Jan. 20, when a government turnaround agency says whether it will help rehabilitate the carrier.
Its weakness provides American and Delta with a rare opportunity to invest in the carrier and share in its access to routes in Asia, the world's fastest-growing region for aviation. JAL, a former flag carrier that was privatized in 1987, has long been a protected and prized national asset.
Tensions between American and Delta have grown as the battle has intensified in recent weeks. In 2007, JAL joined the Oneworld alliance, to which American belongs. Last year, Delta said it wanted to partner with JAL. "The notion of coming in and trying to steal someone else's alliance partner just isn't done," said one person familiar with the matter, who adds that relations between the two carriers are "pretty strained."
Mr. Bastian has repeatedly said that "the focus should be on who provides the most long-term commercial partnership, not who provides the most short-term cash."
Meanwhile, JAL's biggest commercial creditor banks have proposed a debt-forgiveness package worth over $3 billion, in a major concession designed to coax the government-funded Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corp. out of placing the struggling carrier in court-led bankruptcy protection, people familiar with the matter said. The banks have proposed a 300 billion yen debt waiver, which includes a debt-for-equity swap.
JAL's main banks are opposed to a bankruptcy filing, as they would see much of their loans to the carrier wiped out. But the ETIC views a court-led process the only way to restore taxpayers' confidence after a decade of public bailouts for JAL, as well as ensuring a transparent process
The plan was also presented to the Development Bank of Japan, the state-backed lender asked by the government in recent days to double an existing credit line to JAL to 200 billion yen to ensure its jet keep flying through spring.
According to the people familiar with the matter, the banks that submitted the proposal include Mizuho Corporate Bank, which is part of Mizuho Financial Group Inc.; Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ, part of Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc.; and Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp., a unit of Sumitomo Mitsui Financial Group Inc. They submitted the proposal after the ETIC urged the bank creditors to waive 300 billion yen in JAL loans.
JANUARY 7, 2010, 8:35 A.M. ET
AMR Boosts JAL Offer
By MARIKO SANCHANTA and ATSUKO FUKASE
TOKYO—AMR Corp's American Airlines raised its offer to invest in Japan Airlines Corp. by $300 million to $1.4 billion, according to people familiar with the situation, intensifying its battle with rival Delta Air Lines Inc. to forge a partnership with the cash-strapped carrier.
American met with JAL executives Thursday morning and sweetened its offer, according to these people. Last month, American, along with members of the Oneworld airline alliance and private equity fund TPG, said it would invest $1.1 billion into JAL. A formal announcement on the increased offer is expected next week.
"We are still in negotiations with both airlines," said a JAL spokeswoman, who declined to comment on whether American had increased its offer. A Delta spokesman declined to comment. Both U.S. airlines are seeking a minority stake.
At a separate press conference Thursday, Delta President Ed Bastian suggested his company could go higher, saying "we are willing and able to raise additional capital through third-party resources." Delta and its SkyTeam airline alliance members have offered JAL a total package of about $1 billion, including $500 million in equity.
The higher offer came as investors grew increasingly concerned about JAL's prospects. Its shares dropped 9.5% Thursday to 76 yen (about 82 U.S. cents) after some of its biggest lenders proposed a major debt-for-equity swap that would dilute current shareholders.
JAL is deeply unprofitable and sitting on more than 1 trillion yen ($10.8 billion) in net debt and pension liabilities. It is pursuing an out-of-court restructuring but also studying whether it should file for the Japanese equivalent of U.S. Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. A decision is expected to come on Jan. 20, when a government turnaround agency says whether it will help rehabilitate the carrier.
Its weakness provides American and Delta with a rare opportunity to invest in the carrier and share in its access to routes in Asia, the world's fastest-growing region for aviation. JAL, a former flag carrier that was privatized in 1987, has long been a protected and prized national asset.
Tensions between American and Delta have grown as the battle has intensified in recent weeks. In 2007, JAL joined the Oneworld alliance, to which American belongs. Last year, Delta said it wanted to partner with JAL. "The notion of coming in and trying to steal someone else's alliance partner just isn't done," said one person familiar with the matter, who adds that relations between the two carriers are "pretty strained."
Mr. Bastian has repeatedly said that "the focus should be on who provides the most long-term commercial partnership, not who provides the most short-term cash."
Meanwhile, JAL's biggest commercial creditor banks have proposed a debt-forgiveness package worth over $3 billion, in a major concession designed to coax the government-funded Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corp. out of placing the struggling carrier in court-led bankruptcy protection, people familiar with the matter said. The banks have proposed a 300 billion yen debt waiver, which includes a debt-for-equity swap.
JAL's main banks are opposed to a bankruptcy filing, as they would see much of their loans to the carrier wiped out. But the ETIC views a court-led process the only way to restore taxpayers' confidence after a decade of public bailouts for JAL, as well as ensuring a transparent process
The plan was also presented to the Development Bank of Japan, the state-backed lender asked by the government in recent days to double an existing credit line to JAL to 200 billion yen to ensure its jet keep flying through spring.
According to the people familiar with the matter, the banks that submitted the proposal include Mizuho Corporate Bank, which is part of Mizuho Financial Group Inc.; Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ, part of Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc.; and Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp., a unit of Sumitomo Mitsui Financial Group Inc. They submitted the proposal after the ETIC urged the bank creditors to waive 300 billion yen in JAL loans.
01-07-2010, 06:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
TOKYO—AMR Corp's American Airlines raised its offer to invest in Japan Airlines Corp. by $300 million to $1.4 billion, according to people familiar with the situation, intensifying its battle with rival Delta Air Lines Inc. to forge a partnership with the cash-strapped carrier.
American met with JAL executives Thursday morning and sweetened its offer, according to these people. Last month, American, along with members of the Oneworld airline alliance and private equity fund TPG, said it would invest $1.1 billion into JAL. A formal announcement on the increased offer is expected next week.
"We are still in negotiations with both ...
01-07-2010, 06:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Opps! I'm a little slow this morning
01-07-2010, 06:24 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 503
01-07-2010, 06:39 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I think a more important question would be... when they start parking more airplanes, does the number of RJs have to shrink as well? I'll betcha the answer is a resounding NO. This has been a fear of mine since our contract has always been written with growth in mind and not shrinkage. Example: In past contracts, the amount of international codeshare was based on a floor hour number. IOW, if our international flying dropped below a certain number of hours, DAL sould no longer ADD any codeshare. There was nothing in those contracts that said they had to also reduce the codeshare partners' flying. Result could be that DAL could add thousands of hours of codeshare flying, and reduce our flying to zero. I see the same problem here. We continue to park airframes, and the Rjs remain constant. Hence a huge growth in the percentage of DCI flying. I'm sure I will be told not to worry about it though...
01-07-2010, 06:53 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,989
Career Expectations?
I am a little confused about the “right” of pilots at DAL to get wide-body fences in any potential merger with Alaska due to “career expectations.” 
Who has any career expectations after 9-11. UAL Pilots had career expectations – how are they working out? Pan Am guys had career expectations also. TWA….. well you get the point. Career expectations do not seem like a reliable indicator of an actual airline career. The only realistic career expectation is that this career is a crapshoot.
If we do merge with Alaska we should strive or a fair SLI with minimal use of fences. I imagine there would be some fences, but by crafting a SLI based on category, the merger fence use could be minimized.
Scoop
Who has any career expectations after 9-11. UAL Pilots had career expectations – how are they working out? Pan Am guys had career expectations also. TWA….. well you get the point. Career expectations do not seem like a reliable indicator of an actual airline career. The only realistic career expectation is that this career is a crapshoot.
If we do merge with Alaska we should strive or a fair SLI with minimal use of fences. I imagine there would be some fences, but by crafting a SLI based on category, the merger fence use could be minimized.
Scoop
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