Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-21-2009, 08:37 AM
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12-21-2009, 08:37 AM
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I sure miss Teco Teco...their steak and onions was 1st class
12-21-2009, 08:45 AM
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Does anyone know if most or all the PIRP pilots have retired? If not, how many are left and when will all of them be retired? Just curious. Thanks,
Denny
Denny
12-21-2009, 08:50 AM
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If you look at the January category list you will find that the real story on wide body flying is a little different than many report here. According to my figures the percentages of pilots in the categories are as follows:
777/747 A fDL 4.4% fNW 4.6%
765/330 A fDL 2.7% fNW 7.8%
757/767 A fDL 20.4% fNW 10.3%
Total fDL 27.4% fNW 22.6%
I am sure the formatting will be messed up, but you can probably figure it out. The end result is the DL brought more wide body flying but NW brought more higher paying wide body flying. It looks like we have had about 300 retirements (including PRIP's since) the merger, almost all from fNW pilots. My guess is the arbitrator's probably looked at these factors balancing each other over the long term. Certainly this bid will cause a lot of consternation in Atlanta, but in 20+ years at Delta I have never seen a long time period where Atlanta doesn't get the best deals. Not complaining, I could have moved to Atlanta but I didn't, my choice with no regrets.
Pilots hate change and this merger has brought change. At least none of the changes includes having pilots on furlough, that's pretty good.
777/747 A fDL 4.4% fNW 4.6%
765/330 A fDL 2.7% fNW 7.8%
757/767 A fDL 20.4% fNW 10.3%
Total fDL 27.4% fNW 22.6%
I am sure the formatting will be messed up, but you can probably figure it out. The end result is the DL brought more wide body flying but NW brought more higher paying wide body flying. It looks like we have had about 300 retirements (including PRIP's since) the merger, almost all from fNW pilots. My guess is the arbitrator's probably looked at these factors balancing each other over the long term. Certainly this bid will cause a lot of consternation in Atlanta, but in 20+ years at Delta I have never seen a long time period where Atlanta doesn't get the best deals. Not complaining, I could have moved to Atlanta but I didn't, my choice with no regrets.
Pilots hate change and this merger has brought change. At least none of the changes includes having pilots on furlough, that's pretty good.
12-21-2009, 09:00 AM
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These numbers are skewed because 757/767 is a blended category containing both wide and narrow body. The real debate for that category is the pay rate. If you are flying a 757 you are getting a bump. If you are flying a 767 or 7ER you are performing wide body flying for a narrow body rate. So while your numbers include all pilots on the 755 on fNW and 75/76 on fDL, they are inaccurate when talking about true wide body flying versus wide body pay. Not sure there is an accurate way to break it out into wide/narrow body flying hours. If you are talking about pay hours, we will have to see how many fDL bid 755 in MSP or DTW to make the judgement on the first post SOC AE. I would agree as a whole that fNW 755 drivers got a pay benefit, but I would hardly call it a bump in wide body flying until the bid results are complete and we see how the patterns are built out of DTW and MSP after they are converted to 7ER. My $.02
Regardless, it has been mentioned before in this thread that the once different, and lower, payrate for the 757 was brought up to the 767 rate in a previous contract. Hence now all 757/767 payrates are widebody payrates. In the next contract, if we want to negotiate for an even higher rate for the 767 vs 757 that's fine with me.
Denny
Last edited by Denny Crane; 12-21-2009 at 09:24 AM.
12-21-2009, 09:23 AM
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Carl
12-21-2009, 09:31 AM
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Thanks for the update. That kinda blows! The only reason I could think of offhand for it is......could it be related to the change in augmentation rules requiring more captains? Anyway, thanks for the update!Denny
12-21-2009, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by capncrunch 
What is the most common thing that confuses the Northies you've spoken with?
Didn't NW displacements also include preferences? I can't imagine the concept of having displacement choices is foreign to them.
I think the real problem is that people will commit the cardinal sin, and not bid things they can actually stomach, or fail to plan for enough displacement options. None of those concepts are unique to this airline, or this bidding process.
The only problems I foresee is that N guys will assume that:
1) REG is a guarantee, like Block. REG is a close guess, and I don't even know how it's determined, that will put you near the borderline between Line and "Block". As time goes on, and as the clean-up bid is posted, your individual staus will likely change. If you want to control it better, put %. Which leads to this next assumption.
2) % is equivalent to a number in category. IOW, you see a category of 100 pilots, and decide you need to be #85 to get a line. So you list 85%. Unfortunately, Planning ends up deciding to let 120 people bid in catgeory, for whatever reason (happens all the time). Your 85% gets you #102 in category. Conversely, Planning may elect to only put in X successful bidders, and understaff slightly, until the clean-up bid. Now, the category has only (for example) 87 people. You'd be thrilled to be #85, and wait for more bidders in the future, except that you asked to be 85%. 85% of 87 people is 74 people. In effect, you required to be #74, by asking for 85%, when you actually wanted to be #85 in category. ooops: you're not senior enough. So, for even better control, you ask for a specific number. We've already alluded to our last incorrect assumption...
3) Category size is a constant. So you figure a number gives you optimal control, and you ask to be #85 in category. As discussed before, the category after the award may be bigger, or smaller. #85 of 120 may be awesome, but #85 of 85 not so much.
There is no fast rule about whether a % or a number is better, and there is no clear way to tell the final category size. As it turns out, these are problems that plague both sides evenly. I think a lot of N guys will be surprised, but that has more to do with the magnitude of the bid, than the process. Huge bids = big ripples. It's the nature of the beast. An equivalent % of guys will outbid themsleves on the South side.
What makes the process most different to the North, I think, is the absence of Block/Reserve. That is new to them, but it is definitely not a surprise: we've been discussing it for months.
At the end of the day, everyone should bid carefully, and not get too cute with % or #, and follow that most sacred principle of bidding: bid what you want, want what you bid. And do keep in mind that greed can be costly. There is no harm in not taking a swing at the first pitch: many of us can afford to put in a few (but probably unneccessary) displacement bids, and enjoy the holidays in the meantime. Except for displacements, noone is going to get a crappy award that they didn't ask for...
What is the most common thing that confuses the Northies you've spoken with?
Everyone I spoke to seemed to think that the guys who have displacement notices on the 320 would automatically get MD80/90s. These are folks without a position so they must find one that their seniority can hold. It might be the incoming MD88s, it might not, depending on how seniority plays out.
I think the real problem is that people will commit the cardinal sin, and not bid things they can actually stomach, or fail to plan for enough displacement options. None of those concepts are unique to this airline, or this bidding process.
The only problems I foresee is that N guys will assume that:
1) REG is a guarantee, like Block. REG is a close guess, and I don't even know how it's determined, that will put you near the borderline between Line and "Block". As time goes on, and as the clean-up bid is posted, your individual staus will likely change. If you want to control it better, put %. Which leads to this next assumption.
2) % is equivalent to a number in category. IOW, you see a category of 100 pilots, and decide you need to be #85 to get a line. So you list 85%. Unfortunately, Planning ends up deciding to let 120 people bid in catgeory, for whatever reason (happens all the time). Your 85% gets you #102 in category. Conversely, Planning may elect to only put in X successful bidders, and understaff slightly, until the clean-up bid. Now, the category has only (for example) 87 people. You'd be thrilled to be #85, and wait for more bidders in the future, except that you asked to be 85%. 85% of 87 people is 74 people. In effect, you required to be #74, by asking for 85%, when you actually wanted to be #85 in category. ooops: you're not senior enough. So, for even better control, you ask for a specific number. We've already alluded to our last incorrect assumption...
3) Category size is a constant. So you figure a number gives you optimal control, and you ask to be #85 in category. As discussed before, the category after the award may be bigger, or smaller. #85 of 120 may be awesome, but #85 of 85 not so much.
There is no fast rule about whether a % or a number is better, and there is no clear way to tell the final category size. As it turns out, these are problems that plague both sides evenly. I think a lot of N guys will be surprised, but that has more to do with the magnitude of the bid, than the process. Huge bids = big ripples. It's the nature of the beast. An equivalent % of guys will outbid themsleves on the South side.
What makes the process most different to the North, I think, is the absence of Block/Reserve. That is new to them, but it is definitely not a surprise: we've been discussing it for months.
At the end of the day, everyone should bid carefully, and not get too cute with % or #, and follow that most sacred principle of bidding: bid what you want, want what you bid. And do keep in mind that greed can be costly. There is no harm in not taking a swing at the first pitch: many of us can afford to put in a few (but probably unneccessary) displacement bids, and enjoy the holidays in the meantime. Except for displacements, noone is going to get a crappy award that they didn't ask for...
12-21-2009, 09:40 AM
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Can't be the augmentation rules because they've been in place now for 2 months. For Jan we have about 138 line holders and 60 plus on reserve. Unbelievably fat on Captains. Yet no PIRP's until March/April and no NFL's. I put in for NFL's back in October all the way through April and I was denied. Like I said man...I just don't get it.
Carl
12-21-2009, 10:08 AM
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No way the 9 guys getting displaced will have the seniority to hold A320 at any base, at least the Captains
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