Iceberg

If you’re at Endeavor, you would know better than us. If you aren’t at Endeavor now, you don’t qualify for the flow even if you become employed at Endeavor.

HTBH

TED74, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this point. I absolutely agree that the pilot is the last line of defense in making the call and ensuring fatigue isn't a safety issue. Make the call - 100%. But the situation getting to the point where the pilot is the one making that call should be the exception, not the rule. This whole situation with rotations has gotten out of hand and it shouldn't be the sole responsibility of the pilot to mitigate the fatigue threat.

It is an ALPA problem and an RCC problem in the fact that the company has ignored the requests of ALPA and the RCC in rotation construction and gone completely after efficiency and profit over safety and pilot input to QOL. I'm not sure what else the union can do at this point except say "we didn't expect them to do that" again. The company will undoubtedly use this as leverage in the contract negotiations. "You want decent trips again? What will you give up for that?" It's a problem the eventually makes its way direct to the pilots, but I'm glad the Union is at least pushing the company and highlighting that this is an issue. And yes, more fatigue calls gives them more leverage to make a change.

This is also a problem of the company and management. A problem of their own making with the absurd decisions they made in regards to manning over the past year or two. I don't know about the rest of the pilots out there, but I certainly don't feel like much of a member of the "Delta Family" as of late. They shouldn't be building some of these ridiculous rotations. Period. The debacle with the latest QCQ shows just how out of touch they really are with what is going on out on the line.

And yes, it is an FAA problem. It should never have gotten to the point where the extension was just assumed. They are the oversight on all of this and have a responsibility to ensure safety across the entire system. Questionable sometimes if they've succeed with some of the FAR117 things that have taken place. But, yes, it is their responsibility as well.

I 100% agree the pilot is the final authority and we should probably be making the fatigue call more often. But management, the union and the FAA all have roles in this and each needs to fulfill those roles before it all falls into the lap of the pilot on the line.

HTBH

TED74

I think you and I actually agree. My intent was not to suggest that pilots not calling fatigued were causal. I just think for where we find ourselves now (following all the errors you highlight, attributed to all the parties you cite), the only quick fix is honest fatigue calls. Being so far behind with training/hiring/manning, and being mired in contentious mediated negotiations on the heels of a pandemic means the company isn’t going to “do the right thing”, even when it is an exceptional case of dangerous business practice. The optimizer could be programmed with the same avoids the company published in QCQ and bid packs would be fixed in December. They won’t do it though because it would be extraordinarily expensive. Only schedule disruption expenses/logistics from pilots being honest about chronic and acute fatigue are likely to move the needle quickly on fatiguing schedules. All the other fixes (which are still appropriate) won’t make noticeable improvements any time soon.

HTBH

100% agree.

Big E 757

Thats how you debate!

Bell

What’s the problem with the rotations? Is it a matter of commutability? Or would a drive-to-work type also be likely to get fatigued?

Iceberg

Long duty days with extended sits between flights. Short and shorter overnights in between 8+ hour block days. Early reports with late sign outs. All the good stuff. Reroutes mixed in to keep you on your toes.

The good news is the company suggested PBS bidding priorities to not run into fatiguing rotations and if you add ELSE START NEXT to their suggestions, you won’t be able to build a line.

gloopy

What Iceberg said, plus other more subtle metrics like the obsession with mandatory plane changes and all that. As to the point you mentioned, its not a binary commuter vs non cummuter paradigm. Even the short drivers to work have more tiring days when every trip signs in at 0'Dark:30 and releases late at night. The "locals" who have 2-3+ hour drives can have it much harder than a "commuter" (by air) with a pad or hotels. All of that isn't just on a per rotation basis either; these things pile up and multiply. Sleep debt is real and it sometimes takes a while to properly recover. Tolerance stacking can look good on paper but often falls apart in practice over time.

crewdawg

A few trips ago we swapped jets with the crew at the gate next to us in DTW. Both jets had zero MELs, both left within 40-45 minutes. They were doing an IND turn and we were doing a GRR turn. Seems legit!

fishforfun

This must be a thing in DTW. I think I have even seen LGA at one gate and 2 gates down JFK was leaving 10 min later. But of course we had to plane swap.