Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-08-2009, 11:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
I think the take-away from the conversation about Moak is that it highlights a difference between a legitimate argument and the other kind of argument.
Legitimate arguments start with with a disagreement with a particular facet of the MEC's actions, and are backed up with some sort of logical explanation as to why the MEC is incorrect in some action or approach. As a bonus, a better alternative is usually offered, with some sort of rationale.
You can discuss these intelligently, even without agreeing. There is something there to work with.
The other arguments invariably start with a blanket statement about the union, or some disparaging remark about anyone who doesn't agree, or with a personal attack. The favorite subject of personal attacks seems to be Moak. They're roughly the equivalent of cussing or screaming in the middle of a battle of witts: they only help identify the loser, faster.
Legitimate arguments start with with a disagreement with a particular facet of the MEC's actions, and are backed up with some sort of logical explanation as to why the MEC is incorrect in some action or approach. As a bonus, a better alternative is usually offered, with some sort of rationale.
You can discuss these intelligently, even without agreeing. There is something there to work with.
The other arguments invariably start with a blanket statement about the union, or some disparaging remark about anyone who doesn't agree, or with a personal attack. The favorite subject of personal attacks seems to be Moak. They're roughly the equivalent of cussing or screaming in the middle of a battle of witts: they only help identify the loser, faster.
12-08-2009, 11:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
Posts: 978
So DTW becomes an ER base when everyone gets their "bounces" in the 76. Any guess on the health or growth of this category in DTW? And what did you mean by "learning their lesson with CVG ER"?
Thanks,
Longtime CVG
7ER, A
Thanks,
Longtime CVG
7ER, A
12-08-2009, 11:35 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Never mind.
12-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: LAX 350 A
Posts: 564
There's that "give up" attitude again. I know that they start off by "giving" us a pot of money and then we have to divvy up our demands based costs etc. How about we approach them first listing our demands and let them figure out how to pay for it.
Executive compensation doesn't seem to be suffering but the average airline employee seems to be making the same $$ today that they did 10 years ago. It's great to have a good rapport with management but that doesn't mean we have to bend over whenever they say so.
Executive compensation doesn't seem to be suffering but the average airline employee seems to be making the same $$ today that they did 10 years ago. It's great to have a good rapport with management but that doesn't mean we have to bend over whenever they say so.
12-08-2009, 12:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Capn is implying that Lee is doing this right now while he is the MEC chairman of DALPA. I find this acusation reprehensible and if he cannot prove it, he needs to remove his post.
If any one is wondering, I am a line pilot with no affiliation to the union other than being a dues paying member who is outraged that someone could make an unfounded acusation like this. As I said before, I do not agree with everything Lee has done but I will NEVER question his integrity until he shows me different.
Denny
If any one is wondering, I am a line pilot with no affiliation to the union other than being a dues paying member who is outraged that someone could make an unfounded acusation like this. As I said before, I do not agree with everything Lee has done but I will NEVER question his integrity until he shows me different.
Denny
Denny,
Can we still make unfounded accusations about politicians and corporate executives? Because, more often than not, for them, that's just good detective work.
New K Now (still gonna send you a "help please" PM soon)
12-08-2009, 12:32 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
They allowed it to be bid in DMBS prior to the AE opening. None of that silliness is going on yet.
12-08-2009, 12:35 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
12-08-2009, 12:48 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
I would be very very careful about accusing or implying someone is guilty of criminal conduct on a public forum. You might quickly find yourself without a house, checking and savings account and a large stack of legal fees. Unless you have direct evidence of what your implying I would ask the moderator to delete every post making reference to this.
This has to be one of the lowest blows I have seen on a forum.
This has to be one of the lowest blows I have seen on a forum.
That would not prevent a individual from pursuing civil litigation on their own time, but it will not be paid for by the association. I also find your blatant fear mongering almost as low as the original post. Suing an individual on your own dime and seeing it through to conclusion takes deep pockets and a lot of perseverance and may or may not be successful, in which case you get to pay the legal fees, and might be in turn counter-sued.
More people back down from threats of lawsuits than actual lawsuits, and in fact ALPA officers and Reps are routinely sued by members (not the other way round) and actually pay for ALPA provided supplemental insurance to provide legal representation for such.
12-08-2009, 12:59 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I don't agree with the post in reference, but you are completely wrong. I suggest you review the Landrum Griffith Act as it pertains to the free speech rights of union members - bottom line is you can say anything you want about a union official free from fear of recrimination. I highly suggest you call ALPA National Legal and get their interpretations on the topic. It has been tested in recent years and ALPA policy manual undated to reflect those interpretations.
That would not prevent a individual from pursuing civil litigation on their own time, but it will not be paid for by the association. I also find your blatant fear mongering almost as low as the original post. Suing an individual on your own dime and seeing it through to conclusion takes deep pockets and a lot of perseverance and may or may not be successful, in which case you get to pay the legal fees, and might be in turn counter-sued.
More people back down from threats of lawsuits than actual lawsuits, and in fact ALPA officers and Reps are routinely sued by members (not the other way round) and actually pay for ALPA provided supplemental insurance to provide legal representation for such.
That would not prevent a individual from pursuing civil litigation on their own time, but it will not be paid for by the association. I also find your blatant fear mongering almost as low as the original post. Suing an individual on your own dime and seeing it through to conclusion takes deep pockets and a lot of perseverance and may or may not be successful, in which case you get to pay the legal fees, and might be in turn counter-sued.
More people back down from threats of lawsuits than actual lawsuits, and in fact ALPA officers and Reps are routinely sued by members (not the other way round) and actually pay for ALPA provided supplemental insurance to provide legal representation for such.
12-08-2009, 01:32 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
I don't agree with the post in reference, but you are completely wrong. I suggest you review the Landrum Griffith Act as it pertains to the free speech rights of union members - bottom line is you can say anything you want about a union official free from fear of recrimination. I highly suggest you call ALPA National Legal and get their interpretations on the topic. It has been tested in recent years and ALPA policy manual undated to reflect those interpretations.
At the end of the day, we all want pretty much the same things for our pilot group and profession. Sure we have strong disagreements about how to get there, but we have much more in common than we do holding us apart. Basically, we are amongst friends.
Objectively, Moak and our MEC have done a better job than anyone else in their positions anywhere else. I don't see much to complain about even though Moak and our MEC decided not to act on proposals I've supported. For those who think he's been lousy, I suggest supporting him for Association President. You'll never get him recalled, but you might get him promoted.
Just make sure you know what you're (not you specifically Fly - I'm using the generic you, as in "we" ) getting yourself into.
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