Iceberg

I don’t think anyone has said “poor me.” Holiday pay was suggested. You argued against it. Reasons were given. You argued against them by saying they were false cover ups of the real reason. Now you have stopped arguing against it (did checklistmonkey influence you?) and have stuck with the money grab accusation. To top it all off, now we are just whiny, woe-is-me types.

No one asked for managements sympathy, and you’re the only one saying abuse. Any more false accusations?

BobZ

Well....it began with moralizing over the sanctity of (lost) family time and being forced....forced mind you...to work. Hilarious.

And progressed to the FAs have it and JB and the nebulous 'industry standard' plea. Oh...and the claim its a tool to modify and control selected pilots bidding behaviors.

Emotional and pretty adolescent persuations.

Any of those rationales at the bargaining table are not likely to get any traction. Or sympathy.......

See, its them you will have to convince to cough up the $$....not me or any other pilot.

You could try floating your advocacy to your cpo....or maybe email the ceo directly?

He may be completely unaware of the horrors of the conditions of your employment at delta.

So go ahead and ask for it. If it gets worked into the pwa costing we all get to vote on if its worth it or not.

In the mean time stop with the sob stories about 'forced holiday labor', FA working condition envy, and the heavy burden other pilots bidding behaviors place on your life.

Iceberg

Gosh Bob, I’m glad you explained how it works to be employed for a company with union representation. No one has to work here, someone has work holidays, we can’t just nicely ask Ed for it. You’re a true hero bob, a true hero. We’d be lost without you.

Or, maybe it was brought up here as an idea for negotiations. I, and I’m sure others, put it in the contract survey. Maybe the negotiating team gets it in an agreement or maybe they don’t. Maybe someone else sees and likes the idea and voices it to their rep. Maybe they agree with you and voice that to their rep.

theUpsideDown

Holiday pay for a pilot is one of the very last things, under free shoe shines, that I'd place on an ask list. But if he wants try to convince pilots that its worth more, what does it matter to you? You think anyone is convinced we NEED holiday pay? Common.

I don't know how much it makes sense to increase the pay rates when theres a lot of soft pay that could use some work. Everyones W2s would still jump up and your time would be valued a lot higher, possibly get some more days off.

The dal pwa is for us, lets make sure this thing is robust, and get the most value, not try to set any industry bars either. I'm tired of hearing about pay rates on my 21 hour 4 day that would be worth 27 at some regionals. That might mean an extra day off or two with the same pay. If delta management is gonna try to turn us into 80-85 hours or bust in all categories lets make sure that the trip value counters their tactic.

AlphaBeta

I think it was posted pages ago, but I am not sure this is a low cost item. I bet the union has a data point on how much it would cost to implement this. I for one am all for it. I think it was thanksgiving of 15 there were coverage awards around 40% so this touches more people than just the super junior. Just not sure if the juice is worth the squeeze when the numbers come back on how much it costs to implement.

m3113n1a1

If we all had half the passion bobzzzz has against holiday pay for the bigger issues (scope, retirement, pay) we'd be in great shape!

BobZ

Im not against any pilot asking for what they want.

But im guessing we hav maybe a thousand different lists of priorities among 14000 pilots.

What i do have a problem with is whining about the individual hardships any given pwa compensation or scheduling metric presents.

None of us are gona be stuck in the starus quo of an individual situation over the entirety of a career. So using individual anecdotes to rationalize alteration of universal pwa applications is foolish.

And using the pwa language and terms as means to influence and direct pilot behaviors and priorities to benefit some is antithetical to a unions purpose.

Ask for what you want. In the end its the majority that will decide.

full of luv

Everyone knows what's in store when they take an airline job.

No one is whining about working a holiday(s). Some find more value in having that time off than others.

Some pilots would rather have a 1.5x override than the holiday off. You contend they won't be swayed. Perhaps not, either way it wouldn't take away any senior pilots ability to bid the holiday off, just reward the pilot working a bit more.

My observation after a couple of decades in this business is that money motivates some pilots, perhaps your bidding pattern is immune from monetary concerns but I assure you that in the other 14,000+ pilots there are some that are.

Ironically, I've thought about this for years, and I can actually avoid the holidays for the most part currently. Right now with younger kids, I too would avoid the holidays even with the override, but I'm not everyone.

Someday, I may bid into a category again where the holidays are harder to get off, and I'd think a 1.5x override would make the trip a bit more acceptable. Eventually, my kids out of the house, I'd bid the holiday trip on purpose with a 48hr layover in Europe and take my wife with me.

I've brought up holiday pay override every contract negotiation and survey. I don't whine about it in the interim, but if we don't ask now, when?

Improving our contract with ideas from others is not the eternal sin. I have no idea how much it would cost. Lots of devil in the details. How many GS's go out each holiday? How much CPO enforcement goes into holiday coverage? 20yrs ago, I got tagged with SDO (duty officer at my squadron) during the Xmas period. When I dropped mil leave for this duty, I got called and asked to send in a copy of my actual orders for this period (the only time in 11yrs of reserves).

Obviously the company / ALPA would have to know the data to cost out the details, but if you never ask, you surely never get.

Herkflyr

"Comically low valued?" You haven't been here long have you? Prior to the FAR 117 agreement, and a couple of side letters prior, here were our work rules.

1. We had a thing called VM (Variable Minimum) that essentially averaged 5 hours a day for regular lineholders. While not 5.15, it was close right? Not even, and here is why.

2. VM (and its successor, Duty Period Average) did NOT apply to
...reserves at all; especially with 2-3 day trips, the reserve sitting in the one seat would get paid less, if not far less, than the regular lineholder in the other seat. Two-day trips could--and often did--pay a reserve as little as four hours.

...dh-only duty periods
...30 hour layovers
...the last day of a redeye, say LAX-ATL

3. While I think the whole min day concept at least should be examined, be wary of what you wish for. Commutable trips would likely decrease significantly. I don't commute, so its not as important to me, but it surely matters to a lot of others.

theUpsideDown

The low cost item thread is another thread. I didn't studder. I know it's costly. If every trip is worth more, and it will be, its the pay raise you want. I havent run the numbers across every fleet but it'd be huge on mine.

I deleted the history lesson. Firstly, im newer than you, but ive watched you all fumble with pay to get it more in line with what you want. Congrads, all us airline pilots have been there, it sucks. What i want are higher credits trips which will give us more days off (thats how it works). The company will respond with less 30hr overnights and less commutable trips. For junior bases, commutability turns out to be important for the company when it's a junior base and everyone bags out sick. Theyll say we will lose it, then miraculous, it comes back.

I commute, if i get 30 hrs i want it at home with my kids, not on the road. I dont mind coming in a day ahead of time, i pay for a crashpad.

Im one voice. If the pilot group doesnt want it, fine. But these trips credit value is laughable, it was just that in the past they were more laughable. The min day may seriously screw up the bargaining history and strategy delta alpa has sought, but it says a lot a real min day is already on the ask list so i doubt it.

Soft pay is also hard to take away during the next bankruptcy.