Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-26-2009, 04:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
[quote=Chente;717226]
The junior pilot is not always in the lowest paid positions. In fact they are spread throughout the copilot seats even on the 7ER's flying international. The company has to staff the airline. In a airline with multiple types of aircraft a furlough becomes more difficult. If you simply furloughed the bottom 500 pilots as a example you would end up with several fleets of aircraft you could not man and would have massive cancelations. To furlough 500 pilots requires a series of training steps as you move pilots down to lower paid categories until you have the 500 surplus pilots all in the bottom categories and their replacements trained and through IOE. Then you can actually furlough.
The more categores a airline has the more difficult a furlough is for management and the more costly. Contrary to the forum talk the flow down to Compass presents no real issues to management other then it being another category. Compass is no different then when we had the 737 express operation. It simply adds another layover of training and moving pilots. Prior to the merger with NWA Delta management maintained the fleet simplification and getting down to 3 fleet types was critical to the survival of the airline. Then they decided on the merger and now having multiple fleets is a good thing giving us flexibility!!! Management changes positions faster then the wind shifts.
Heyas,
Management will move with lightning speed to move people into lower paying positions for furlough or whatever other reason when it suits their need.
Can someone please explain this concept to me? I know there is no "real" talk of furlough right now...but...I've seen this written on here and have never understood the logic behind it. Why does it matter if people are moved to "Lower paying positions"? Everything is based on seniority during a furlough. The junior guy goes first and then the rest follow. I just cant wrap my mind around this concept of moving people into "lower paying positions"
Management will move with lightning speed to move people into lower paying positions for furlough or whatever other reason when it suits their need.
Can someone please explain this concept to me? I know there is no "real" talk of furlough right now...but...I've seen this written on here and have never understood the logic behind it. Why does it matter if people are moved to "Lower paying positions"? Everything is based on seniority during a furlough. The junior guy goes first and then the rest follow. I just cant wrap my mind around this concept of moving people into "lower paying positions"
The junior pilot is not always in the lowest paid positions. In fact they are spread throughout the copilot seats even on the 7ER's flying international. The company has to staff the airline. In a airline with multiple types of aircraft a furlough becomes more difficult. If you simply furloughed the bottom 500 pilots as a example you would end up with several fleets of aircraft you could not man and would have massive cancelations. To furlough 500 pilots requires a series of training steps as you move pilots down to lower paid categories until you have the 500 surplus pilots all in the bottom categories and their replacements trained and through IOE. Then you can actually furlough.
The more categores a airline has the more difficult a furlough is for management and the more costly. Contrary to the forum talk the flow down to Compass presents no real issues to management other then it being another category. Compass is no different then when we had the 737 express operation. It simply adds another layover of training and moving pilots. Prior to the merger with NWA Delta management maintained the fleet simplification and getting down to 3 fleet types was critical to the survival of the airline. Then they decided on the merger and now having multiple fleets is a good thing giving us flexibility!!! Management changes positions faster then the wind shifts.
Last edited by sailingfun; 11-26-2009 at 04:36 AM.
11-26-2009, 04:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,057
AE System:
Pros:
LONG lead time protects your position if you want to stay put...sort of, since the company can "convert" you at their whim. Company controls the timing anyway.
Cons:
Long lead time. If you want to change positions, you better have your mind made up.
Occasional bids makes it difficult to plan moves.
No real gouge on what people are going to do. "Pent up demand" means people are going to go all over the place.
Discourages same category base swapping.
No real way to predict when you go to training.
No real way to start banking the new pay rate (might work in your favor, though).
If you fall off to reserve or other undesirable QoL malady, no short term way to bail out to something you can hold a line or better QoL on.
Pros:
LONG lead time protects your position if you want to stay put...sort of, since the company can "convert" you at their whim. Company controls the timing anyway.
Cons:
Long lead time. If you want to change positions, you better have your mind made up.
Occasional bids makes it difficult to plan moves.
No real gouge on what people are going to do. "Pent up demand" means people are going to go all over the place.
Discourages same category base swapping.
No real way to predict when you go to training.
No real way to start banking the new pay rate (might work in your favor, though).
If you fall off to reserve or other undesirable QoL malady, no short term way to bail out to something you can hold a line or better QoL on.
It might be nice to be able to do a same category base swap as a commuter (bid reserve and play golf in ATL in the summer, ski in SLC in the winter).
I've got a junior friend at NWA thought and he's been living the horror of the APA system. Been there less than two years and has gone DTWDC9, ANC742, MSP742, MSPDC9, DTWDC9. That's a lot of changing in a year and a half and throw a merger in on top of that. That's not to say that you can't have a lot of training events under the AE when things are going backwards. I bet there might be a couple folks that have gone ER, 73N, M88 in a year and a half.
11-26-2009, 04:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
The AE system would not slow a furlough compared to the monthly system. The company can post a AE every two weeks if they want. In fact in more normal times we saw a 4 major AE each year and normally one cleanup AE after each quarterly bid so there would be a total of 8 per year or near monthly. The AE's have stopped because of the merger and the desire of the company to minimize training. They know a lot of pilots are going to want to switch bases. The company actually tried to get the union to agree to joint system wide bids prior to SOC with conversions to happen only after SOC. This was turned down by the union and the company was forced to abide by the transition agreement. That is why there huge rush to get SOC done. They know they are going to be short pilots this summer and want to get as much training done this winter as possible and then get everyone out of the school house and flying the line in the summer. That is also why many of the planned changes will be put off until the fall.
11-26-2009, 04:45 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
I still wish we could do a couple of practice bids. With bidding in Atlanta expected to be "brutal" it would be good to gain as much insight as possible into the bid results before committing to a plan of action.
Can anyone fill in the details of "brutal" ? Unless they displace off the 767 I would expect that the increased utilization of the f-NWA jets would result in entitlements rather than displacements.
Can anyone fill in the details of "brutal" ? Unless they displace off the 767 I would expect that the increased utilization of the f-NWA jets would result in entitlements rather than displacements.
The Bid is expected to be Brutal for Atlanta because a lot of wide body flying will be leaving and none gained. More time is going to the former NWA bases then the former Delta bases. This is because of training constraints with the A330 category. (only 1 sim according to the NWA guys here).
11-26-2009, 06:07 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Sailing,
Thanks. I did not realize the WB flying leaving Atlanta was not going to be backfilled. For those of us who are going to be displaced into commuting a practice ( or monthly award ) would be a whole lot better for planning. Even if the plans involve trying to get a leave to work somewhere else (locally).
As you point out Compass positions are no different than any other positions, "pilots in seats" to our management. I sure wish we had those bidding options and the protection of our MEC when we got there.
Have you ever commuted to reserve? Throw in a new kid and an active side business and it's just miserable. Here's to hoping that like most things in this business the bad news is exaggerated. (as opposed to sitting here at home on Long Call while the wifey plays our grand piano in between preparations for a feast which in all ways is a totally fantastic way to make a living ! )
Management had said the total number of pilot positions in ATL was going to grow (some time ago). So is this off due to the inability to train and backfill on f-NWA equipment? Does anyone know the total number of jobs leaving ATL?
For we junior guys, this GREAT job started to smell like low tide about the time when Jim Whitehurst left the building. The best news I ever heard is that this merger wasn't happening at the C44 meeting. Could I get a tape of that to play, just to make me feel better?
Thanks. I did not realize the WB flying leaving Atlanta was not going to be backfilled. For those of us who are going to be displaced into commuting a practice ( or monthly award ) would be a whole lot better for planning. Even if the plans involve trying to get a leave to work somewhere else (locally).
As you point out Compass positions are no different than any other positions, "pilots in seats" to our management. I sure wish we had those bidding options and the protection of our MEC when we got there.
Have you ever commuted to reserve? Throw in a new kid and an active side business and it's just miserable. Here's to hoping that like most things in this business the bad news is exaggerated. (as opposed to sitting here at home on Long Call while the wifey plays our grand piano in between preparations for a feast which in all ways is a totally fantastic way to make a living ! )
Management had said the total number of pilot positions in ATL was going to grow (some time ago). So is this off due to the inability to train and backfill on f-NWA equipment? Does anyone know the total number of jobs leaving ATL?
For we junior guys, this GREAT job started to smell like low tide about the time when Jim Whitehurst left the building. The best news I ever heard is that this merger wasn't happening at the C44 meeting. Could I get a tape of that to play, just to make me feel better?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 11-26-2009 at 06:29 AM.
11-26-2009, 06:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Take a little time off and things change. Last I heard there was not going to be a reduction of 777 positions in ATL. NYC 777 base moving to DTW with the 2 new LR's(coming in March) available to fly the 2 new routes out of DTW starting in June. This was pretty solid info but things change fast.
11-26-2009, 06:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: west coast wannabe
Posts: 815
For we junior guys, this GREAT job started to smell like low tide about the time when Jim Whitehurst left the building. The best news I ever heard is that this merger wasn't happening at the C44 meeting. Could I get a tape of that to play, just to make me feel better?
11-26-2009, 06:26 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment of the AE system.
It might be nice to be able to do a same category base swap as a commuter (bid reserve and play golf in ATL in the summer, ski in SLC in the winter).
I've got a junior friend at NWA thought and he's been living the horror of the APA system. Been there less than two years and has gone DTWDC9, ANC742, MSP742, MSPDC9, DTWDC9. That's a lot of changing in a year and a half and throw a merger in on top of that. That's not to say that you can't have a lot of training events under the AE when things are going backwards. I bet there might be a couple folks that have gone ER, 73N, M88 in a year and a half.
It might be nice to be able to do a same category base swap as a commuter (bid reserve and play golf in ATL in the summer, ski in SLC in the winter).
I've got a junior friend at NWA thought and he's been living the horror of the APA system. Been there less than two years and has gone DTWDC9, ANC742, MSP742, MSPDC9, DTWDC9. That's a lot of changing in a year and a half and throw a merger in on top of that. That's not to say that you can't have a lot of training events under the AE when things are going backwards. I bet there might be a couple folks that have gone ER, 73N, M88 in a year and a half.
11-26-2009, 06:30 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I don't think you will see any practice bids. The company wants to get pilots into training as quick as possible. Contractually they have to post Feb training by 5 Jan. That means they have to close the bid and get the results out in time to plan the Feb training. The bid will have to close around the 28th at the latest. The company often changes there mind on basing decisions right up to the moment of posting a bid so a practice bid would not have much validity.
The Bid is expected to be Brutal for Atlanta because a lot of wide body flying will be leaving and none gained. More time is going to the former NWA bases then the former Delta bases. This is because of training constraints with the A330 category. (only 1 sim according to the NWA guys here).
The Bid is expected to be Brutal for Atlanta because a lot of wide body flying will be leaving and none gained. More time is going to the former NWA bases then the former Delta bases. This is because of training constraints with the A330 category. (only 1 sim according to the NWA guys here).
11-26-2009, 06:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Smoke and mirrors....
I agree, but you still haven't given an answer to DALPA getting mgmnt to park RJ's. You are redirecting our questions taking us off point, which is everyones complaint with the communications from ALPA. Answer the question!!
How did DALPA get RJ's parked? I know they helped by alowing a higher ALV. I understand that b/c of this the company remained within the contractual limits and still does. I see that those hours are now flown by mainline a/c and pilots. Answer the question!!
How did DALPA get RJ's parked?
How did DALPA get RJ's parked? I know they helped by alowing a higher ALV. I understand that b/c of this the company remained within the contractual limits and still does. I see that those hours are now flown by mainline a/c and pilots. Answer the question!!
How did DALPA get RJ's parked?
I will chalk the lack of response to the fact this board moves fast and it is a holiday season, but it sure looks like you (typical MEC fashion) are ignoring a question you don't want to have to answer.....ignore long enough and they (us pesky little pilots) will forget.
Once again I will pose my question:
How did DALPA get the RJ's parked? Please reread my previous post and give me a valid answer, not smoke and mirrors.
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