Xray678

Back in the mid 90s, when we had Delta Express, you had guys with one year holding captain and all new hires in the right seat. Never seemed to be a problem back then.

I think the 190 should pay the same as the 717, but I doubt management is losing any sleep over staffing the category.

Purple Drank

No way they are fine with the training churn those rates would cause

Dat jet

X-ray,

You bring up a good point about it not being a problem to staff Delta Express back then, but other airlines had a B Scale then too.

Right now Delta is losing guys in the pool to UAL, FDX, and SWA because of wait times to class. More guys will bail if they see they are walking into a B Scale pay rate. That will screw Delta when it comes to manning our schedule down the road. Look at Atlas...they are losing a handful of guys each week....why?....because of pay and work rules.

When management says, "we don't want to price ourselves out of competition by paying pilots too much", they are making a mistake. Candidates will flock to jobs with the best work rules, pay rates, perceived stability, and ability to upgrade.

Maddogflier

Delta express was 54 airframes. This is 20. A large number of new hires change equipment after their freeze regardless. It will be staffed with 130 copilots. The low rates might add 20 or 30 training events a year. Common sense would suggest that when talking about 2 billion in contractual improvements it will be so far down in the noise as to be inaudible.

Purple Drank

Is that you, airwolf?

From what I've seen of your posts here, I'm not sure you're the right guy to be lecturing on "common sense."

Elliot

You honestly think the company is going to stop at 20 airframes? Really, Shirley?

Denny Crane

Uhhhhhhhh, not a problem? Then riddle me this? Why do I have the impression that Express was essentially one big GS/GSWC category?

I mean, isn't the way the company gets into a GSWC situation because there are not enough bodies to cover available trips?

Denny

crewdawg

AE is out.

flyallnite

Well, this is a bit different. The pay scales we are talking about here are more of a dramatic difference. For the copilots, it's nothing, since first year pay is the same. It's the captain pay that's the issue here. I agree with others that 'training churn' isn't a player. What is a player here and this is different than Express... is the very real possibility of new hire captains in the E190 category. The rates are just low enough that anybody not on probationary pay will really have to think long and hard about committing to a 2 year seat lock. It's a pay hit for sure. I could've held Captain on Express, but the rates just didn't add up to make it worth my while. This is even more skewed.

So what you might have, and what the company absolutely, positively, does not want--is a probationary pilot in class for the left seat of an E190. Delta takes the probationary period very seriously and would never want a guy off the street to be able to skip that via an upgrade. Today, they are putting it out to LCA's and others to encourage senior FO's to upgrade, because they are facing a 'leadership crisis' in the cockpit. It's a crisis they've created by themselves, by building ridiculous trips and monthly rosters for the domestic narrobody categories and then pushing those to the limits. There's only so much you can do to an international pilot. I've talked with lots of new captains that regret their upgrade and are looking to go back to the right seat on a widebody. Having a new hire E190 captain paired with a new hire FO is a manifestation of their worst nightmare. That to me is the issue they'll need to resolve here.

iaflyer

Exactly. While there are plenty of people who can hold M88 or 717 Captain in NYC on reserve, who wants to? Covering 2-3 airports, with trips that can get pretty bad with a reroute, for a bit more pay and less days off? No thanks...

I've seen and heard of some pretty nasty reroutes on those airplanes - on the ER or larger, there really isn't much to go wrong. When the schedule gets really bad, they just recrew it and send it off.

Of course, the company would say, "statistics say that's a rare event" or "it's within the PWA and FARs". Sure it's legal, but safe or restful?

No thanks - I see why plenty of Int'l FOs want to stay right there near the top of the list, do a GS or pick up a WS if they need some extra dough. Meanwhile they enjoy the summer vacation and holidays off.