Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-23-2009, 01:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
Take a step back and see how we are kicking each other about pay, instead of negotiation better pay with the company. Since there is (at least in my opinion) no different or harder to fly a 747 than it is to fly a DC-9, I believe the pay difference should be based on years with the company and wheter FO or CA. This would keep senior pilots who needs to be closer to home, closer to home and younger guys without kids to do the long hauls. A much better option for every single pilot on the list and it works awesome for the airlines who uses it.
I get the impression that we are in a relationship with the company that is way too one sided. They ask, we give. We ask they decline. I hope this isn't the way it is, but again we're not getting information out of our elected officials (sounds like Washington
). I want the company to succeed and I want management to get rational compensation as well as all of the employees who're working hard to make the company succeed. If we don't ask, we don't get. So are we asking?
Last edited by dragon; 11-23-2009 at 01:53 PM. Reason: clarification
11-23-2009, 01:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
Is there some way to only get electronic copies of this? How many trees and how much money do we spend to get our v-files spammed?
11-23-2009, 01:57 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
As for me, I enjoyed the afternoon coffee break. I don't normally do instant, but I am a cheap pilot, and free is free.
11-23-2009, 01:57 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I have argued that too, but there are about 25% of our pilots that do not have a e-mail address on file, and of those that do about 25% of the mailings sent, get sent back.
11-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 618
beware: oncoming rant...
The problem, as I see it, with negotiations as we currently pursue them is, the way in which we currently pursue them. I am familiar with the negotiating architecture. Its fairly fixed and a series of exchanges, where both parties deliver proposals and counter-proposals and so on. The idea of a smoke-filled room with two groups on either side of a table doesn't really exist.
The 'conversation' in negotiations, to date, has always been give and take from the 'available' pool of cash the company was willing to 'give' to the pilot group. This isn't the way to move us forward and upwards.
We need to stop playing the role of a group 'victimized' during the two downturns of the last decade and start playing the role that we do, every day out on the line. We add value every single operating day (oh, which is every day) to Delta Air Lines. Our most important brand asset is safety and professionalism. The secondary brand qualities of inexpensive tickets, good customer service in booking and airport service, on-board customer service etc....pale in comparison to the fact that the flying public is pretty damn sure that every time they get on a Delta jet (or any other mainline carrier) that they are going to walk off of that airplane in one piece.
We deliver the promise of safe and efficient air travel to our customers every day.
We also add value by cooperating in codeshares and JV's the company seeks to undertake. We allow our management to attempt to increase revenue by increasing our flying not using Delta mainline aircraft or crews. This is fine and dandy, but how is this concession (which it is) by the pilot group not worth a great deal of compensation? Compensation in the form of work rule improvements or additional equity.
We are not victims. Or we shouldn't be now.
Yes the industry has sucked off and on for a decade now...however:
We have over 12,000 extremely well educated, professional and accomplished aviators at this airline. We will, as the largest pilot's union in the World, begin to set the tone for the global industry. We must remember this as must our union leadership.
For anyone to say that we must give the company ANYTHING at this stage of the game in order to be fairly compensated for our expertise and daily professionalism is ridiculous.
For the mere fact that we have not drug the company down in the muck over SLI, we should have seen additional equity thrown our way.
Either way, we are still negotiating in the past and need to be negotiating towards the future. We are not victims. We have helped this company get through 9/11, bankruptcy, and the worst economic downturn since the great depression...oh and the largest airline merger in history.
If all of you do not think that this puts us in a power of position, I'm not sure what will precisely.
If OUR union which is now, roughly, a 2.2million pound gorilla (figure 12K pilots with an avg weight of 185pounds), were to actually dig their heels in and NOT agree to side letters at the drop of a hat the TONE of our conversations with the company would change. I am not saying we need to develop an adversarial relationship with management, but we should seek to change the dynamic of our negotiations with them (as I see it right now).
In PR, if you don't like what is being said about you, its time to change the conversation...not try to change what people are saying.
Its time for us to change the conversation from restoration and the available pool of funds for the pilot group the company says that they can 'afford'.
We need to start framing the conversation in reality. We are now the World's largest airline and pilot group. We should be compensated accordingly. And no, I don't care what ANY other labor group at Delta gets paid. They are not pilots. The C-levels make more money than I do. That's the way corporate structures work. This "well if we do that for you guys..." must cease to be an acceptable tactic from management. Last time I checked we are one of the ONLY organized groups on the property. If the other groups need representation, they can always vote it in.
We are adding value every day at Delta and helping management position the airline to be the World's powerhouse. If that, in and of itself, is not a platform that justifies industry leading compensation; then what precisely does?
I don't have all the answers. I'm not privy to ALL the work being done in the trenches by our MEC and LEC. Frankly, I think they are doing a fine job so far. But as we close up the merger and start marching off into the future as one airline, we must make our elected representatives aware that we are not going to be satisfied with what has gone before. That was all prologue and I truly believed that they have served us well in this merger.
However, things are about to start changing rapidly and we need to seize the opportunity afforded to us as the new 'biggest kid' on the block. We need to do this both for ourselves and for our profession's future.
But that is just how I see it. I could be wrong.
The problem, as I see it, with negotiations as we currently pursue them is, the way in which we currently pursue them. I am familiar with the negotiating architecture. Its fairly fixed and a series of exchanges, where both parties deliver proposals and counter-proposals and so on. The idea of a smoke-filled room with two groups on either side of a table doesn't really exist.
The 'conversation' in negotiations, to date, has always been give and take from the 'available' pool of cash the company was willing to 'give' to the pilot group. This isn't the way to move us forward and upwards.
We need to stop playing the role of a group 'victimized' during the two downturns of the last decade and start playing the role that we do, every day out on the line. We add value every single operating day (oh, which is every day) to Delta Air Lines. Our most important brand asset is safety and professionalism. The secondary brand qualities of inexpensive tickets, good customer service in booking and airport service, on-board customer service etc....pale in comparison to the fact that the flying public is pretty damn sure that every time they get on a Delta jet (or any other mainline carrier) that they are going to walk off of that airplane in one piece.
We deliver the promise of safe and efficient air travel to our customers every day.
We also add value by cooperating in codeshares and JV's the company seeks to undertake. We allow our management to attempt to increase revenue by increasing our flying not using Delta mainline aircraft or crews. This is fine and dandy, but how is this concession (which it is) by the pilot group not worth a great deal of compensation? Compensation in the form of work rule improvements or additional equity.
We are not victims. Or we shouldn't be now.
Yes the industry has sucked off and on for a decade now...however:
We have over 12,000 extremely well educated, professional and accomplished aviators at this airline. We will, as the largest pilot's union in the World, begin to set the tone for the global industry. We must remember this as must our union leadership.
For anyone to say that we must give the company ANYTHING at this stage of the game in order to be fairly compensated for our expertise and daily professionalism is ridiculous.
For the mere fact that we have not drug the company down in the muck over SLI, we should have seen additional equity thrown our way.
Either way, we are still negotiating in the past and need to be negotiating towards the future. We are not victims. We have helped this company get through 9/11, bankruptcy, and the worst economic downturn since the great depression...oh and the largest airline merger in history.
If all of you do not think that this puts us in a power of position, I'm not sure what will precisely.
If OUR union which is now, roughly, a 2.2million pound gorilla (figure 12K pilots with an avg weight of 185pounds), were to actually dig their heels in and NOT agree to side letters at the drop of a hat the TONE of our conversations with the company would change. I am not saying we need to develop an adversarial relationship with management, but we should seek to change the dynamic of our negotiations with them (as I see it right now).
In PR, if you don't like what is being said about you, its time to change the conversation...not try to change what people are saying.
Its time for us to change the conversation from restoration and the available pool of funds for the pilot group the company says that they can 'afford'.
We need to start framing the conversation in reality. We are now the World's largest airline and pilot group. We should be compensated accordingly. And no, I don't care what ANY other labor group at Delta gets paid. They are not pilots. The C-levels make more money than I do. That's the way corporate structures work. This "well if we do that for you guys..." must cease to be an acceptable tactic from management. Last time I checked we are one of the ONLY organized groups on the property. If the other groups need representation, they can always vote it in.
We are adding value every day at Delta and helping management position the airline to be the World's powerhouse. If that, in and of itself, is not a platform that justifies industry leading compensation; then what precisely does?
I don't have all the answers. I'm not privy to ALL the work being done in the trenches by our MEC and LEC. Frankly, I think they are doing a fine job so far. But as we close up the merger and start marching off into the future as one airline, we must make our elected representatives aware that we are not going to be satisfied with what has gone before. That was all prologue and I truly believed that they have served us well in this merger.
However, things are about to start changing rapidly and we need to seize the opportunity afforded to us as the new 'biggest kid' on the block. We need to do this both for ourselves and for our profession's future.
But that is just how I see it. I could be wrong.
11-23-2009, 02:13 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
You guys are looking at the MD-88 pay all wrong!! We should get paid more because with the extra seats WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH ANOTHER CAT RANCHER!!!!! Those extra seats will mean adding another flight attendant. Pay me more to put up with their BS. lol
11-23-2009, 02:24 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 217
Um....When seats were removed from the 757's for trans-Atlantic service, I'm pretty sure that there were no posts advocating reducing pay.
11-23-2009, 02:29 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
beware: oncoming rant...
The problem, as I see it, with negotiations as we currently pursue them is, the way in which we currently pursue them. I am familiar with the negotiating architecture. Its fairly fixed and a series of exchanges, where both parties deliver proposals and counter-proposals and so on. The idea of a smoke-filled room with two groups on either side of a table doesn't really exist.
The 'conversation' in negotiations, to date, has always been give and take from the 'available' pool of cash the company was willing to 'give' to the pilot group. This isn't the way to move us forward and upwards.
We need to stop playing the role of a group 'victimized' during the two downturns of the last decade and start playing the role that we do, every day out on the line. We add value every single operating day (oh, which is every day) to Delta Air Lines. Our most important brand asset is safety and professionalism. The secondary brand qualities of inexpensive tickets, good customer service in booking and airport service, on-board customer service etc....pale in comparison to the fact that the flying public is pretty damn sure that every time they get on a Delta jet (or any other mainline carrier) that they are going to walk off of that airplane in one piece.
We deliver the promise of safe and efficient air travel to our customers every day.
We also add value by cooperating in codeshares and JV's the company seeks to undertake. We allow our management to attempt to increase revenue by increasing our flying not using Delta mainline aircraft or crews. This is fine and dandy, but how is this concession (which it is) by the pilot group not worth a great deal of compensation? Compensation in the form of work rule improvements or additional equity.
We are not victims. Or we shouldn't be now.
Yes the industry has sucked off and on for a decade now...however:
We have over 12,000 extremely well educated, professional and accomplished aviators at this airline. We will, as the largest pilot's union in the World, begin to set the tone for the global industry. We must remember this as must our union leadership.
For anyone to say that we must give the company ANYTHING at this stage of the game in order to be fairly compensated for our expertise and daily professionalism is ridiculous.
For the mere fact that we have not drug the company down in the muck over SLI, we should have seen additional equity thrown our way.
Either way, we are still negotiating in the past and need to be negotiating towards the future. We are not victims. We have helped this company get through 9/11, bankruptcy, and the worst economic downturn since the great depression...oh and the largest airline merger in history.
If all of you do not think that this puts us in a power of position, I'm not sure what will precisely.
If OUR union which is now, roughly, a 2.2million pound gorilla (figure 12K pilots with an avg weight of 185pounds), were to actually dig their heels in and NOT agree to side letters at the drop of a hat the TONE of our conversations with the company would change. I am not saying we need to develop an adversarial relationship with management, but we should seek to change the dynamic of our negotiations with them (as I see it right now).
In PR, if you don't like what is being said about you, its time to change the conversation...not try to change what people are saying.
Its time for us to change the conversation from restoration and the available pool of funds for the pilot group the company says that they can 'afford'.
We need to start framing the conversation in reality. We are now the World's largest airline and pilot group. We should be compensated accordingly. And no, I don't care what ANY other labor group at Delta gets paid. They are not pilots. The C-levels make more money than I do. That's the way corporate structures work. This "well if we do that for you guys..." must cease to be an acceptable tactic from management. Last time I checked we are one of the ONLY organized groups on the property. If the other groups need representation, they can always vote it in.
We are adding value every day at Delta and helping management position the airline to be the World's powerhouse. If that, in and of itself, is not a platform that justifies industry leading compensation; then what precisely does?
I don't have all the answers. I'm not privy to ALL the work being done in the trenches by our MEC and LEC. Frankly, I think they are doing a fine job so far. But as we close up the merger and start marching off into the future as one airline, we must make our elected representatives aware that we are not going to be satisfied with what has gone before. That was all prologue and I truly believed that they have served us well in this merger.
However, things are about to start changing rapidly and we need to seize the opportunity afforded to us as the new 'biggest kid' on the block. We need to do this both for ourselves and for our profession's future.
But that is just how I see it. I could be wrong.
The problem, as I see it, with negotiations as we currently pursue them is, the way in which we currently pursue them. I am familiar with the negotiating architecture. Its fairly fixed and a series of exchanges, where both parties deliver proposals and counter-proposals and so on. The idea of a smoke-filled room with two groups on either side of a table doesn't really exist.
The 'conversation' in negotiations, to date, has always been give and take from the 'available' pool of cash the company was willing to 'give' to the pilot group. This isn't the way to move us forward and upwards.
We need to stop playing the role of a group 'victimized' during the two downturns of the last decade and start playing the role that we do, every day out on the line. We add value every single operating day (oh, which is every day) to Delta Air Lines. Our most important brand asset is safety and professionalism. The secondary brand qualities of inexpensive tickets, good customer service in booking and airport service, on-board customer service etc....pale in comparison to the fact that the flying public is pretty damn sure that every time they get on a Delta jet (or any other mainline carrier) that they are going to walk off of that airplane in one piece.
We deliver the promise of safe and efficient air travel to our customers every day.
We also add value by cooperating in codeshares and JV's the company seeks to undertake. We allow our management to attempt to increase revenue by increasing our flying not using Delta mainline aircraft or crews. This is fine and dandy, but how is this concession (which it is) by the pilot group not worth a great deal of compensation? Compensation in the form of work rule improvements or additional equity.
We are not victims. Or we shouldn't be now.
Yes the industry has sucked off and on for a decade now...however:
We have over 12,000 extremely well educated, professional and accomplished aviators at this airline. We will, as the largest pilot's union in the World, begin to set the tone for the global industry. We must remember this as must our union leadership.
For anyone to say that we must give the company ANYTHING at this stage of the game in order to be fairly compensated for our expertise and daily professionalism is ridiculous.
For the mere fact that we have not drug the company down in the muck over SLI, we should have seen additional equity thrown our way.
Either way, we are still negotiating in the past and need to be negotiating towards the future. We are not victims. We have helped this company get through 9/11, bankruptcy, and the worst economic downturn since the great depression...oh and the largest airline merger in history.
If all of you do not think that this puts us in a power of position, I'm not sure what will precisely.
If OUR union which is now, roughly, a 2.2million pound gorilla (figure 12K pilots with an avg weight of 185pounds), were to actually dig their heels in and NOT agree to side letters at the drop of a hat the TONE of our conversations with the company would change. I am not saying we need to develop an adversarial relationship with management, but we should seek to change the dynamic of our negotiations with them (as I see it right now).
In PR, if you don't like what is being said about you, its time to change the conversation...not try to change what people are saying.
Its time for us to change the conversation from restoration and the available pool of funds for the pilot group the company says that they can 'afford'.
We need to start framing the conversation in reality. We are now the World's largest airline and pilot group. We should be compensated accordingly. And no, I don't care what ANY other labor group at Delta gets paid. They are not pilots. The C-levels make more money than I do. That's the way corporate structures work. This "well if we do that for you guys..." must cease to be an acceptable tactic from management. Last time I checked we are one of the ONLY organized groups on the property. If the other groups need representation, they can always vote it in.
We are adding value every day at Delta and helping management position the airline to be the World's powerhouse. If that, in and of itself, is not a platform that justifies industry leading compensation; then what precisely does?
I don't have all the answers. I'm not privy to ALL the work being done in the trenches by our MEC and LEC. Frankly, I think they are doing a fine job so far. But as we close up the merger and start marching off into the future as one airline, we must make our elected representatives aware that we are not going to be satisfied with what has gone before. That was all prologue and I truly believed that they have served us well in this merger.
However, things are about to start changing rapidly and we need to seize the opportunity afforded to us as the new 'biggest kid' on the block. We need to do this both for ourselves and for our profession's future.
But that is just how I see it. I could be wrong.
11-23-2009, 02:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
Yay, the DC-9 finally got its own page on Deltanet!
11-23-2009, 02:48 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
