Scoop

Your talking about SLC right? Aircraft at 15,000 go over a 13,000 peak and get a spike on the radalt.

Scoop

sailingfun

If you are the CA then I would ask why you are ignoring the company guidelines. If your the FO I would politely point out that the company places passenger comfort behind only safety in the list of priorities.

RockyBoy

Exactly. The fact that 404yxl jumps in every time we bring this up and tells us we are crazy and 117 is way better tells me he never worked under the old rules and ran into the 30 in 7 violation. Every regional pilot in the world had that at least a couple times a month pre 117.

404yxl

You're talking about two different things here. 30 hours in 7 replaced 24 hours in 7. 30 hours of block in 7 days was replaced with a 60 hours of flight duty in 7 days.

You were arguing that pre-117 was better because you were guaranteed a day off in base. That was never the case. It only guaranteed 24 hours free from duty. 117 requires more, 30 hours of rest, so I don't see your gripe with that issue. I'll ask you again, didn't 12 day trips exist pre-117?

While 117 did eliminate the 30 hours of block hours in 7 days, it gave us 60 hours of flight duty limit in 7 days. The old rules could have allowed 80+ hours of flight duty in 7 days.

I also worked 121 pre-117 and I have had a lot more time at home and more rest during trips than pre-117.

I didn't mention anything about you being crazy. As for you agreeing with Sailing, he stated the same thing I was, there was no requirement for 24 hours off in base pre-117. Your earlier statement was getting on the pre-117 rules guaranteeing you a day off in base every 7 days and I just corrected you that it was 24 hours free from duty. Now you are talking about 30 hours of block in 7, which is a different issue. I don't disagree that went away, but we also had no limit on flight duty in the 7 days pre-117, and now we have a 60 hour limit.

RockyBoy

I don't care what replaced what, the fact is that pre 117 the 30 in 7 block hour limit basically guaranteed you a day at home every 7 days. Removing that now allows companies to back up trips keeping you on the road domestically for as long as they can find you a 30 hour layover.

We have never been guaranteed rest at home, but the block hour rule didn't allow them to schedule you for more than 4.3 hours of average block per day before you had to have a day off which ended up being at home because they couldn't schedule you for more than that. We all used the trick of backing trips up as close as we could and getting 29:30 block within 7 days. Then you tried to get 30 minutes over block sometime in the first 6 days and you got an extra day off when they had to drop a day because you were over 30 hours block.

The 30 in 7 block hour limit was the biggest scheduling issue airlines ran into domestically pre 117. The fact that it is gone tells you who had the most lobbying dollars during 117......ALPA......wait I meant the Airlines.

TenYearsGone

I am almost positive layovers or deadheads under the old rules did not count for your 24 hours off of duty in 7 days of duty(International was different). Basically, he is right. THe old rules guaranteed you at least 24 hours off at home in 7 days of duty (^^^look below from FAR)

Currently, as long as you know ahead of time (THAT IS THE KEY), the company can use you around the system for as long as they like until you hit your times.

117 allows you to be away from home for longer period of times as compared to the old rules.

TEN


^^Duty period means the period of elapsed time between reporting for an assignment involving flight time and release from that assignment by the certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations. The time is calculated using either Coordinated Universal Time or local time to reflect the total elapsed time.
Rest period means the period free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise.

404yxl

The companies could back trips up under the old rules too. To add to that, you could have gotten 80+ hours of flight duty every 7 days, while the new rules limits that to 60 hours.

I don't know why you think it was impossible to work over 6 days in a row under the old rules. Imagine you are a reserve pilot and you get a lot of DH flying and/or short flying days with 2-3 hours. Very easy to work every single day of a 13 day stretch and only receive 1 actual 24 hour layover. During that 13 day stretch you could have seen 160+ hours of flight duty. 117 would limit that to 120 hours and 190 hours in the last 28 days. The old rules could have allowed 360+ hours of flight duty in 28 days.

While we're on this subject, the old rules allowed your 8 scheduled block hour day to turn into 12+ hours. 117 limits it to 9 hard hours. No good-to-start, good-to-finish.

RockyBoy

Who did you work for pre 117?

404yxl

I'm curious to why it matters. I am just stating the what it was pre-117. There were regionals that went to bottom of the FAA requirement, while others didn't.

Don't you think it is a good thing that we don't see a 8 hour block day turn into 12 hours and that it is limited to a hard 9 hours now? That our 24 hours of rest in 7, turned into 30 hours?

TenYearsGone

Unless I am wrong, Layover counted as being under the company's watch thus not satisfying the 24 hours off of duty in 7.

TEN