RockyBoy

Did 15 days in a row a few months ago. 117 is awesome. So are the rules we have for transition trips. Probably one of the only good things we had in TA15.

404yxl

I'm not sure if I follow you on blaming 117. Pre-117 allowed for 24 hours off in 7. 117 requires 30 off in 168 hours (7 days).

What you are talking about is a contract issue, not a 117 gripe. If anything, I would say 117 made it harder to go longer stretches since the old rules said you needed a 24 hour rest period rather than the 30 hour one we have now.

hammer189

I remember the old 24 hrs off had to be in BASE but now it's 30 hrs off anywhere, even on a layover. This was not an improvement.

forgot to bid

757-300, 220+ people on board, pull into gate and shut down the APU ASAP even if they don't have air on board the jet yet. Oh yeah! Great idea! Awesome! Save gas! Screw passengers, they didn't pay for comfort. Well, maybe we care about comfort, 'like how's the ride?' 20x in flight and dammit you better get up and tell them goodbye in case they fill out a survey, but as far as AC, let em burn.

Not just 757. Had crews doing that out west on the 717 and this week on an 88 when I was deadheading.

I don't get it. Why? Why why why why, WHY?


Standby for rant about people seeing no problem with being 2000 agl 17 miles from an airport at 250 knots.

Doug Masters

Wait......I've been doing it wrong???

404yxl

Are you sure you aren't thinking about a contractual requirement? Didn't 12 day trips exist pre-117?

The old rules required 24 hours free from duty in the last 7 days. 117 requires 30 hours free from duty in the last 168 hours (7 days). During the rule making, I remember the FAA saying they wanted to up the 24 hours to 36 hours initially, but backed off to 30 hours for the final rule, saying that a 36 hours off requirement may do more harm than good in terms of our schedules and the airlines scheduling ability. The hope was that 30 hours offered a better chance at a full calendar day off in the stretch, where 24 hours didn't.

117 requires the 30 hours to be prospectively given, where I'm not 100% sure if the old 24 hours had to be. Whether it did or not, 117 doesn't allow for a 24 hour layover to turn into a 30+ hour layover if a cancellation occurs at hour 20. The only way for the 30 hour rest to be reset in 117, is for the 30 hours to be prospectively known completely in advance. So a 24 hour layover turning into a 44 hour layover, at hour 20, would not satisfy a 30 hour rest reset, unless the pilot had 30 hours off from the 20 hour mark and the layover turned into a 50 hour layover at hour 20.

One follow up note, is the pilot is off duty until the 24 hour mark and may not find out about the cancellation until reporting at the 24 hour mark or checking their schedule prior to leaving the hotel. In that case, their layover would have to become at least 54 hours to satisfy a 30 hour rest reset in 117.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fa...-FTDT-Rule.pdf

Federal Register/ Vol. 77, No. 2 / Wednesday, January 4, 2012 / Rules and Regulations
11. Rest
Carriers will be required to provide their crew with a 10-hour rest opportunity prior to commencing a duty period that includes flying. While the 10-hour rest period may include the amount of time it takes to get to or from a flightcrew member’s house or hotel room, the actual amount of time required for a sleep opportunity may not be reduced below 8 hours. In addition, the length of continuous time off during a 7-day period has been extended from 24 hours under the existing rules to 30 hours. Additional time off is required for individuals whose internal clock may be off because of flipping back and forth between different time zones

RockyBoy

You and I have went down this road before and you are wrong.

It is not a contract issue. 117 did away with the 30 block hour limit in 7 days and replaced it with a 30 hour rest in 168 hour rolling period. After our last go around I don't think you really worked for an airline pre 117 because anyone who did knows 117 made it WAY easier for companies to schedule us for consecutive days in a row. It has NOTHING to do with the required break in duty, but the 30 hour block limit in 7 days disappearing.

poostain

(In a bad southern accent ) Cuz that's the way we always done it son.

sailingfun

That's not correct. It was 24 hours off. Did not matter where. The big difference from a domestic standpoint was you could not exceed 30 block hours in 7 days. That tended to spread domestic hours around more.

RockyBoy

I would bet not one single person EVER did more than 5 domestic trips pre 117. Sure international trips worked....I'm not even sure if the 30 in 7 block hour limit applied to international flying. As far as domestic flying goes, you could not back up two 4 days in a row pre 117 because you would almost always run into the 30 in 7 violation. The fact you don't know this tells me you never flew 121 for an airline pre 117. Did you?