Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-25-2015, 06:24 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Directly, no. In reality though it gives management a pathway to cut the other employees' PS. Everything we get, the rest of the employees get. That is one of the reasons why the threat of a union for the FAs is far better than actually having one.
05-25-2015, 06:29 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
News Flash.
You're demographic is actually in the minority.
We have more new hires and pilots hired pre late 98 (prior furloughed) on the list than 'guys hoping enough other pilots sign their special parting gift hanging in the lounges so they don't look insignificant or like a tool' on our SLI.
Do the math. Numbers all verifiable on the flight ops web site. I'm going with game theory science that an agreement that does not have bottom or top end scope provisions that protect or begin to increase our share of the flying, will kill a TA just as quick as buying our raises with profit sharing.
Steady hiring, that only accelerated with time since '07, has watered down the 'wide body mafia' considerably. Basically, your likely along for the ride until the end.
How much of your picture is going to have ink on the matting?Positive ink, negative doesn't count. Maybe you can fill it out a fraction by hanging it on the fourth floor in the rookery where the penguins live. You know, birds with wings for no apparent reason.
You're demographic is actually in the minority.
We have more new hires and pilots hired pre late 98 (prior furloughed) on the list than 'guys hoping enough other pilots sign their special parting gift hanging in the lounges so they don't look insignificant or like a tool' on our SLI.
Do the math. Numbers all verifiable on the flight ops web site. I'm going with game theory science that an agreement that does not have bottom or top end scope provisions that protect or begin to increase our share of the flying, will kill a TA just as quick as buying our raises with profit sharing.
Steady hiring, that only accelerated with time since '07, has watered down the 'wide body mafia' considerably. Basically, your likely along for the ride until the end.
How much of your picture is going to have ink on the matting?Positive ink, negative doesn't count. Maybe you can fill it out a fraction by hanging it on the fourth floor in the rookery where the penguins live. You know, birds with wings for no apparent reason.
I am not by a long measure "senior". I am senior to you that is true, but for God's sake stop turning this into a senior/junior issue. I was merely point out that the uber senior guys don't care as much about bottom end scope as they do something else. And ironically, in your tirades you verified that exact point.
05-25-2015, 06:34 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Sort of.
This is only true if we get 100% retro pay, and even then you lose the time that you would have had the signing bonus. If we got (per the prevailing rumor) 9% at signing in - say - July, that is immediate monies that can go to work. If it takes until January, that is 6 months that you have lost forever. I am not advocating anything, but you need to be honest with the numbers. If 6 months to a year (or whatever time) of lost increase is acceptable, then discount it and your statement is correct. A 777B with greenies for 6 months, the loss is pretty significant however.
Fire away.
This is only true if we get 100% retro pay, and even then you lose the time that you would have had the signing bonus. If we got (per the prevailing rumor) 9% at signing in - say - July, that is immediate monies that can go to work. If it takes until January, that is 6 months that you have lost forever. I am not advocating anything, but you need to be honest with the numbers. If 6 months to a year (or whatever time) of lost increase is acceptable, then discount it and your statement is correct. A 777B with greenies for 6 months, the loss is pretty significant however.
Fire away.
05-25-2015, 06:35 AM
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Posts: 3,716
No, I made $278k. But if I made that on our lowest paying equipment Im sure our more senior captains made $300k or better.
My point is that we have a very senior pilot group with the majority approaching retirement age. That is going to flavor the next couple of contracts. And pay % may not be at the top of everyones wish list. And I doubt those approaching retirement are going to want to drag out negotiations for many years entertaining unreasonable contract demands from the just say NO crowd.
So yes, the time value of money is more important the older you are I would say.
My point is that we have a very senior pilot group with the majority approaching retirement age. That is going to flavor the next couple of contracts. And pay % may not be at the top of everyones wish list. And I doubt those approaching retirement are going to want to drag out negotiations for many years entertaining unreasonable contract demands from the just say NO crowd.
So yes, the time value of money is more important the older you are I would say.
05-25-2015, 06:39 AM
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05-25-2015, 06:41 AM
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Posts: 1,184
I'm not a "just say no" kind of guy, however I will say no if you touch my profit sharing as part of why I'm getting any kind of raise. If they want to cash in profit sharing after section 3 then I'll be more than happy to take a look at it.
You make the point that the profit sharing check is getting pretty sizable. Well that's because A. the company is making a ton of money and B. we negotiated it and the company turned around and gave it to the rest of the employees. I don't fault them for that. If they hadn't then there very well may have been more unions on property now. They want to correct that and they could unilaterally change, not get rid of, the profit sharing for all but the 13,000 pilots that paid for it. I'm not advocating for that as I like coming to work with happy people and that would surely make an us against them mentality. How do you think that would go and how much would that save the company?
The really funny thing is that evey year, when the PS checks come out, I have an FA ask "Do you guys get PS too?"
You make the point that the profit sharing check is getting pretty sizable. Well that's because A. the company is making a ton of money and B. we negotiated it and the company turned around and gave it to the rest of the employees. I don't fault them for that. If they hadn't then there very well may have been more unions on property now. They want to correct that and they could unilaterally change, not get rid of, the profit sharing for all but the 13,000 pilots that paid for it. I'm not advocating for that as I like coming to work with happy people and that would surely make an us against them mentality. How do you think that would go and how much would that save the company?
The really funny thing is that evey year, when the PS checks come out, I have an FA ask "Do you guys get PS too?"
05-25-2015, 06:48 AM
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Posts: 1,184
I agree that we have leverage, and I trust the negotiators to use that leverage, but I think that them just saying no to drag out negotiations for some unknown reason is foolish. YMMV
05-25-2015, 06:51 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Vapor TA thoughts here: I was reading about how our contract was when I started. 7 weeks of vacation, trips touching, cap, authorized leave, 300 hours of annual sick leave, pension, the list goes on.
I've tried to make this point before. They are playing chess. The game is called "slow boil". As in, gently direct us into the pot and slowly increase the heat. Before you know it, it's too hot to do anything about your predicament, you're cooked.
I made the point in C2012 that the sick leave section gave the company too much leeway to abuse us for using sick leave. Way too many loopholes for the company. I was flatly dismissed by my reps, and a lot of folks on here. "no, the company would never do that!" ---now we have an entire department dedicated to doing just that, and it wasn't enough for them. Now they want more.
Our predicament will be this if we continue to sell our protections for pay: You will be beholden to fly a lot more, with less control of your schedule and your life in order to make a living. Verifying your sick leave may become such a hassle that you may just decide to fly sick (or not well) instead of dealing with the paper chase. But it's not just sick leave.
If we are not careful, they'll have us in the trick bag. The last thing they'll come for is the money. Once they get us strapped to the wheel, then they come for the compensation and we can do nothing to stop it because of: Sick leave, Joint Ventures, Scope, Recovery Compacts, Staffing Requirements and so on. In other words, when they come for the money and you decide you want a day off or want to start pursuing other avenues of work, forget it. We Own You.
Don't get Owned. That's the game we need to be playing.
One last thing: The concept that you have to give to get in negotiations is a farce. We aren't negotiating a peace treaty or a divorce. When a Goldman Sachs employee goes into his boss and asks for a raise following a record-breaking year, does his boss ask him what he's going to give up for that raise? We are making billions because of our efforts. Our execs haven't been asked to give up anything for their raises. Our contracts 'matured' because of incremental gains, not from selling contractual protections that are essential to our careers.
I've tried to make this point before. They are playing chess. The game is called "slow boil". As in, gently direct us into the pot and slowly increase the heat. Before you know it, it's too hot to do anything about your predicament, you're cooked.
I made the point in C2012 that the sick leave section gave the company too much leeway to abuse us for using sick leave. Way too many loopholes for the company. I was flatly dismissed by my reps, and a lot of folks on here. "no, the company would never do that!" ---now we have an entire department dedicated to doing just that, and it wasn't enough for them. Now they want more.
Our predicament will be this if we continue to sell our protections for pay: You will be beholden to fly a lot more, with less control of your schedule and your life in order to make a living. Verifying your sick leave may become such a hassle that you may just decide to fly sick (or not well) instead of dealing with the paper chase. But it's not just sick leave.
If we are not careful, they'll have us in the trick bag. The last thing they'll come for is the money. Once they get us strapped to the wheel, then they come for the compensation and we can do nothing to stop it because of: Sick leave, Joint Ventures, Scope, Recovery Compacts, Staffing Requirements and so on. In other words, when they come for the money and you decide you want a day off or want to start pursuing other avenues of work, forget it. We Own You.
Don't get Owned. That's the game we need to be playing.
One last thing: The concept that you have to give to get in negotiations is a farce. We aren't negotiating a peace treaty or a divorce. When a Goldman Sachs employee goes into his boss and asks for a raise following a record-breaking year, does his boss ask him what he's going to give up for that raise? We are making billions because of our efforts. Our execs haven't been asked to give up anything for their raises. Our contracts 'matured' because of incremental gains, not from selling contractual protections that are essential to our careers.
Last edited by flyallnite; 05-25-2015 at 07:11 AM.
05-25-2015, 06:52 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
If you are a few years from retirement, the difference in what you will accumulate should not significantly affect your position. As a new hire pilot years ago, I appreciated the guys that went before and made the sacrifices for a good contract. To frame this as a young vs old is BS! Work as a unified group to bring everyone's wages and work rules up and stop acting as independent contractors.
05-25-2015, 06:57 AM
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,901
Hurrying as in pushing out a substandard TA with the "Time Value of Money," selling point bandied about. As another poster pointed out, with PS being what it is, the Time Value argument isn't as strong as it used to be.
BTW: Any change to PS is an automatic no vote for me.
BTW: Any change to PS is an automatic no vote for me.
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