Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-18-2009, 07:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Big picture here Slow.
We DON"T want more Delta flying to be outsourced. I know that can be hard to get your head around, but that's the consensus in 99.9% of Delta cockpits.
If Delta can get in bed with JAL and we maintain our flying, that's great. Just don't want to see our flying erode on the "Heavy Metal" side of things as it has on the narrow body side.
We DON"T want more Delta flying to be outsourced. I know that can be hard to get your head around, but that's the consensus in 99.9% of Delta cockpits.
If Delta can get in bed with JAL and we maintain our flying, that's great. Just don't want to see our flying erode on the "Heavy Metal" side of things as it has on the narrow body side.
11-18-2009, 07:20 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Simply put, the company needs us to play ball, and we need to get something for our cooperation. Not a 500 dollar an hr pay rate, but added protections, clearer wording, and graduated benefits based on the success and scope of the agreement. I would like to see a % of the revenue/profit garnered for the group out of every deal.
11-18-2009, 07:25 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: The Beginnings
Posts: 1,317
This isn't true at all. While an internal personal recommendation certainly helps at Delta, it's not necessary. Pilots in my class were called in w/o knowing anyone at Delta.
"It's not what you know, it's who you know" is as true in the pilot world as the rest of the business world. Besides, while a recommendation might help score you an interview, my impression was that your'e very much on your own when you show up in your non descript navy blue suit and red tie.
11-18-2009, 07:26 AM
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Position: Furloughed
Posts: 281
Sounds like rational thought. Isn't that how we ended up with half of all flights being done by RJs? Sure worked out good for us didn't it? This time its even worse, they're eating away at the top jobs, not the bottom ones... and they're not going to ANY pilot in our country, no matter what the pay scale.
11-18-2009, 07:31 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Lets agree to give up half of our jobs because they said we'll lose them all if we don't!
Sounds like rational thought. Isn't that how we ended up with half of all flights being done by RJs? Sure worked out good for us didn't it? This time its even worse, they're eating away at the top jobs, not the bottom ones... and they're not going to ANY pilot in our country, no matter what the pay scale.
Sounds like rational thought. Isn't that how we ended up with half of all flights being done by RJs? Sure worked out good for us didn't it? This time its even worse, they're eating away at the top jobs, not the bottom ones... and they're not going to ANY pilot in our country, no matter what the pay scale.
11-18-2009, 07:41 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The benefit of them taking the flight to the top end is that all of a sudden the senior guys are getting the necessity of Section 1 and all that it entails. It has been truly enlightening to hear these guys talk as we transverse the country.
They see their end job of 777A going away(being harder to obtain) with each agreement, which makes them realize that we need to protect the entire range of our flying to restore what we have lost.
I get what Ice and Slow are stating, I understand business and world economics, but as pilots and our union leaders it is their sworn duty to protect, defend, and further our careers. Outsourcing jobs does not fall in the any of those responsibilities as far as I know.
We have a sting of events behind us that should make us very wary of all agreements with other airlines. It does not mean they are bad. For companies that are strapped with debt, operating on paper thin margins these types of deals are the wave of the future. It reduces the amount of risk any one company would have to bear. It is much like the Rj''s The DCI experiment allowed the company to gather multiple corporate entities together to spread the capital risk out. Same will hold true with this. I can see why our corporate leaders love it. As a pilot it worries me, as I see what is DAL pilot flying being constantly redefined.
We must not hinder our company to evolve, that all us must understand, but at the same time, we must carve out our rights on the ground flood. There is no way we can expect to receive a return after the cabbage has rotted on the dock, ship has sailed etc.
They see their end job of 777A going away(being harder to obtain) with each agreement, which makes them realize that we need to protect the entire range of our flying to restore what we have lost.
I get what Ice and Slow are stating, I understand business and world economics, but as pilots and our union leaders it is their sworn duty to protect, defend, and further our careers. Outsourcing jobs does not fall in the any of those responsibilities as far as I know.
We have a sting of events behind us that should make us very wary of all agreements with other airlines. It does not mean they are bad. For companies that are strapped with debt, operating on paper thin margins these types of deals are the wave of the future. It reduces the amount of risk any one company would have to bear. It is much like the Rj''s The DCI experiment allowed the company to gather multiple corporate entities together to spread the capital risk out. Same will hold true with this. I can see why our corporate leaders love it. As a pilot it worries me, as I see what is DAL pilot flying being constantly redefined.
We must not hinder our company to evolve, that all us must understand, but at the same time, we must carve out our rights on the ground flood. There is no way we can expect to receive a return after the cabbage has rotted on the dock, ship has sailed etc.
11-18-2009, 07:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
I do not think that anyone disagrees that to a point. Fact is that we are allowing code shares, and as the economy to improve the JV's to take flying we once had. Great for the corporate money making machine, but not so good for the pilots' of this association and their career progression.
Point is that there needs to be a better balance than their is.
Going back to all of the DCI resets of PWA's of yesteryear that we kept hitting, why in the world do we agree to language that we know will not stand the stress test. Yes, that is gone, and thank God, I agree that what we have is better than that, but what have we created as the result. We have a DCI system that peaked at 62% of block hrs. In effect there was no where else to stick a RJ. Now they are being reduced and what are we doing to make sure the crud does not happen with a fourth generation RJ. Put a GTF on a 50 seater and we are back where we started.
The idea that this market is deal is a huge mistake in my opinion. We have a leadership team that sees most of DCI as we do. Let get their commitment on paper.
As for you previous question that I did not answer. My Plan is to sit there and not do our company's work. They want access to Haneda, great, we can agree that, that is good for both parties, but what it should not mean is that we give away the farm for them to get it. We bought NWA knowing that open skies was coming to Japan. If we did not see that coming both on the corporate side and the union side, then we need better tea leave readers. Now we are stuck with a NRT hub that may prove to be a flop if we do not gain Haneda access. What a surprise.
I agree that we are stuck with what we are stuck with, but there need to be major protections and qud pro quo in the deal. The Far East is the next Africa as China opens up. We need to protect what we as a company would logically do with out JAL, or Haneda. Simply put the growth expectations we have should remain the same and because JAL needs our billion dollars we should as a group get some major bennies for allowing the company changes in our section one to make it happen. i have stated what some starters should be.
I have also talked to our future C44 reps about this. The ones I have talked to agree that we need a WIN for the DAL pilot group. They as I realize the market is not static as you put it, but we also need to realize that to date we are the largest pilot group in the world attached to the airline with the best potential and because of that, we have a right to demand certain things. As I have said act our weight.
Point is that there needs to be a better balance than their is.
Going back to all of the DCI resets of PWA's of yesteryear that we kept hitting, why in the world do we agree to language that we know will not stand the stress test. Yes, that is gone, and thank God, I agree that what we have is better than that, but what have we created as the result. We have a DCI system that peaked at 62% of block hrs. In effect there was no where else to stick a RJ. Now they are being reduced and what are we doing to make sure the crud does not happen with a fourth generation RJ. Put a GTF on a 50 seater and we are back where we started.
The idea that this market is deal is a huge mistake in my opinion. We have a leadership team that sees most of DCI as we do. Let get their commitment on paper.
As for you previous question that I did not answer. My Plan is to sit there and not do our company's work. They want access to Haneda, great, we can agree that, that is good for both parties, but what it should not mean is that we give away the farm for them to get it. We bought NWA knowing that open skies was coming to Japan. If we did not see that coming both on the corporate side and the union side, then we need better tea leave readers. Now we are stuck with a NRT hub that may prove to be a flop if we do not gain Haneda access. What a surprise.
I agree that we are stuck with what we are stuck with, but there need to be major protections and qud pro quo in the deal. The Far East is the next Africa as China opens up. We need to protect what we as a company would logically do with out JAL, or Haneda. Simply put the growth expectations we have should remain the same and because JAL needs our billion dollars we should as a group get some major bennies for allowing the company changes in our section one to make it happen. i have stated what some starters should be.
I have also talked to our future C44 reps about this. The ones I have talked to agree that we need a WIN for the DAL pilot group. They as I realize the market is not static as you put it, but we also need to realize that to date we are the largest pilot group in the world attached to the airline with the best potential and because of that, we have a right to demand certain things. As I have said act our weight.
We merged. That's history. Looking forward, you still have not articulated a plan. You've articulated a want. Big difference.
There are a couple of different paths (the chess game you refer to) in play here. Assume we don't get to partner with JAL (no JV), we don't get Haneda access, and there is a regulated Japanese government style bilateral agreement. Where's your quid? Where's your flying? Your still part of the largest pilot group in the world. What are you going to send your DEMAND committee to get. We're entitled to act our weight, right? Those prospects you talked about suddenly got a lot bleaker....
Expectations...what a great word. We had nearly 600 jets in 1994, then we began dismantling Frankfurt in response to a new bilateral and open skies. We bottomed at 440 jets. What did we get in return?...furloughs.
A popular quip about history shows up here....
11-18-2009, 08:04 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
I don't see anything against the merger in acl's post.
11-18-2009, 08:11 AM
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
I don't buy for a second the mind set that giving away our flying to help Delta stay profitable will create more jobs. Not only has it not created jobs it certainly hasn't made Delta profitable either.
11-18-2009, 08:18 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: A320-B
Posts: 66
Since this started as a hiring thread let's go old school for a sec. Today at lga I had 3 regional ask about rumors they are hearing about hiring and they are updating profiles. Any insight for them??
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