Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-21-2015, 10:23 AM
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Position: A350 Captain (RET)
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If you are coming from the flight planning area, stay close to the restaurant on the left. You will see the KCM entrance just South of the TSA entrance.
OC
02-21-2015, 10:24 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Maybe spies is too strong a word, but Jerry has a thread over on the chitchat forum where he and some other pilots started making lists of the anonymous names here and who they think they might be. If he did it here he'd be banned but he does it over there so it's apparently okay for him to ruin all the forums.
02-21-2015, 10:39 AM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Obviously the MCF has declined since 2007 not only because airlines have been using it but because it has become a litigation target for law firms like Seham looking for a big payday. The lawyers got a third off the top of the TWA "payout" before anyone else did. The MCF in it's heyday was a warchest to fight the likes of Ichan and Lorenzo. It's not needed any more and has become a true liability and not an asset. The hit to the bottom line was the $26 million payout to the TWA case. The update conveniently forgot that the rest was paid out of insurance and quite a bit smaller than the $1.2 billion you predicted.
The MCF paid out $8.5 Million to CAL; $10.6 Million to UAL; $63.3 Million to EAL; $8.4 Million to TWA; $4.8 Million to NWA; $6.1 Million to DAL in about 12 years. It did what it was supposed to. In a post-consolidation airline industry the funds will be raised out of assessments when needed and not stockpiled collecting dust.
We've had a dues decrease from Herndon and a $7 million dollar dues refund from our MEC because the union isn't broke and doesn't have a financial problem. My reps told me we resubmitted to have the dues decrease voted on again this year and that the goal is to go lower every year. The association is not operating in debt or in a deficit and making up charts won't change that fact.
We've had a dues decrease from Herndon and a $7 million dollar dues refund from our MEC because the union isn't broke and doesn't have a financial problem. My reps told me we resubmitted to have the dues decrease voted on again this year and that the goal is to go lower every year. The association is not operating in debt or in a deficit and making up charts won't change that fact.
Carl
02-21-2015, 10:50 AM
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No. What I said was that I was unable to find out why the DPA is exempt because the finance logs for the DPA are incomplete for 2013, 2014 and 2015. I can't verify that they didn't meet the threshold for filing. Just like I can't find proof that ALPA filed a hardship in the 990. The only place I can find that is where Tim wrote it.
The DPA founded itself on financial transparency. It stopped doing the finances in 2012 around November, 2014 around February and hasn't started 2015 at all. There is no way for a member to see what the money has been used for since late 2012. If I read the tax form correctly, he's only exempt because the donations are too low on an annual basis but I can't tell from the financial reports. They are incomplete or don't exist at all.
Look I know the last update said they are doing it all in their free time but they also asked for money so that the work can get done. There are over two years of DPA finances unaccounted for while you trot around the publicly filed documents that the DPA claims are "hidden."
Nonprofits are not supposed to hold a lot of assets and ours isn't broke nor is it in debt to the tune of $126 million and before you focus on the last update they used the same debt in place or payables (liabilities) in the other articles about this in previous years.
The DPA founded itself on financial transparency. It stopped doing the finances in 2012 around November, 2014 around February and hasn't started 2015 at all. There is no way for a member to see what the money has been used for since late 2012. If I read the tax form correctly, he's only exempt because the donations are too low on an annual basis but I can't tell from the financial reports. They are incomplete or don't exist at all.
Look I know the last update said they are doing it all in their free time but they also asked for money so that the work can get done. There are over two years of DPA finances unaccounted for while you trot around the publicly filed documents that the DPA claims are "hidden."
Nonprofits are not supposed to hold a lot of assets and ours isn't broke nor is it in debt to the tune of $126 million and before you focus on the last update they used the same debt in place or payables (liabilities) in the other articles about this in previous years.
By the way, you accused me earlier of self-describing my business acumen. I asked you to show where I've ever done that. This is my third request. You've ignired the previous two. Why?
Carl
02-21-2015, 11:19 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Unless you're talking about an IRS audit, audits don't matter. IRS filings matter. IRS form 990 matters. It is the exact truth as stated by ALPA to the IRS.
More deflection. Liabilities climbed by over 50% in one year, while net assets dropped by 50% in one year. Those are facts. Everyone is free to attach their desired level of concern to these facts.
Liabilities up 50%, net assets down 50%. Source: ALPA.
Carl
More deflection. Liabilities climbed by over 50% in one year, while net assets dropped by 50% in one year. Those are facts. Everyone is free to attach their desired level of concern to these facts.
Liabilities up 50%, net assets down 50%. Source: ALPA.
Carl
You have muddied what assets are vs liabilities and payables and I agree that we can all debate whether an MCF is worthy but you are mixing content. The extra liability is obviously the TWA payout but the association only (!) paid $26 million of that in it's accounting but the entire amount is a liability for tax reporting because the rest came through insurance against the union.
It's reported as $53 million as a liability on the 990 but it only cost $26 million against the budget and the actually audited books because the rest came from an underwriter. Tim is mixing apples and oranges. Total net liabilities and assets of ALPA where $120 million in 2012 and $154 million in 2013.
It's the same way that the form 990 as applied to you at work that would show an example of you making $300000 as a Captain but Delta reports it as costing them $380000 because of their costs for insurance, tax, benefits etc..... They are the same number but they aren't reported the same way on different forms. It's not magic it's accounting. If the DPA finances were actually online I'd show you the percent of assets to liabilities was horrible as well. It's a smoked red herring.
Unless you have another $1.2 billion lawsuit hiding up your sleeve liabilities vs assets should return to almost zero again for 2014 and any excess will go to MCF and other authorized funds. ALPA finances are in the black. You can call it unhealthy but with the exception of some funds like the MCF a nonprofit isn't supposed to retain it's income as an asset just like the DPA should show a very low balance from year to year in their filings.
02-21-2015, 11:26 AM
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Posts: 165
Your attempts at deflection are laudable...I guess. But the only thing inaccurate in the last DPA update was giving the same line two labels. One label for the line was correct, the other label for the same line was inaccurate. Other than that, every number was accurate to the dollar. I verified each one from ALPA's IRS filing.
Carl
Carl
I don't mind them showing ALPA finances or an opinion about whether they are healthy but you can't spend 5+ years saying you are going to be better and then not live up to your word. How hard is it to account for $200K? Why hasn't Tim kept up with the books? The DPA asks for money in every update. Where is it going? Almost 3 years worth of donated money is untraceable by members as of today.
02-21-2015, 11:40 AM
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02-21-2015, 11:45 AM
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No, they don't. Many fraudulent companies passed their independent audits prior to the liquidations. IRS filings are a lot more reliable because of the punishment involved for fraud.
Let's try to stop your attacks on DPA shall we. DPA is not in power, ALPA is. You're claiming a misinterpretation. Fine. Take everything you're claiming above (minus the DPA rhetoric) and show us line by line on the IRS form 990 where what you're alleging is true.
Carl
You have muddied what assets are vs liabilities and payables and I agree that we can all debate whether an MCF is worthy but you are mixing content. The extra liability is obviously the TWA payout but the association only (!) paid $26 million of that in it's accounting but the entire amount is a liability for tax reporting because the rest came through insurance against the union.
It's reported as $53 million as a liability on the 990 but it only cost $26 million against the budget and the actually audited books because the rest came from an underwriter. Tim is mixing apples and oranges. Total net liabilities and assets of ALPA where $120 million in 2012 and $154 million in 2013.
It's the same way that the form 990 as applied to you at work that would show an example of you making $300000 as a Captain but Delta reports it as costing them $380000 because of their costs for insurance, tax, benefits etc..... They are the same number but they aren't reported the same way on different forms. It's not magic it's accounting. If the DPA finances were actually online I'd show you the percent of assets to liabilities was horrible as well. It's a smoked red herring.
Unless you have another $1.2 billion lawsuit hiding up your sleeve liabilities vs assets should return to almost zero again for 2014 and any excess will go to MCF and other authorized funds. ALPA finances are in the black. You can call it unhealthy but with the exception of some funds like the MCF a nonprofit isn't supposed to retain it's income as an asset just like the DPA should show a very low balance from year to year in their filings.
It's reported as $53 million as a liability on the 990 but it only cost $26 million against the budget and the actually audited books because the rest came from an underwriter. Tim is mixing apples and oranges. Total net liabilities and assets of ALPA where $120 million in 2012 and $154 million in 2013.
It's the same way that the form 990 as applied to you at work that would show an example of you making $300000 as a Captain but Delta reports it as costing them $380000 because of their costs for insurance, tax, benefits etc..... They are the same number but they aren't reported the same way on different forms. It's not magic it's accounting. If the DPA finances were actually online I'd show you the percent of assets to liabilities was horrible as well. It's a smoked red herring.
Unless you have another $1.2 billion lawsuit hiding up your sleeve liabilities vs assets should return to almost zero again for 2014 and any excess will go to MCF and other authorized funds. ALPA finances are in the black. You can call it unhealthy but with the exception of some funds like the MCF a nonprofit isn't supposed to retain it's income as an asset just like the DPA should show a very low balance from year to year in their filings.
Carl
02-21-2015, 11:50 AM
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It's not deflection. The transparent finances of the DPA are not online for all to see as was promised. 2013, 2014 and 2015 are incomplete or missing completely. Without that information I can't tell if DPA should or should not have filed a 990 nor can I see what every penny is spent on. I also can't see if their tax returns are correct and they also don't have an independent audit available. All of these are available for ALPA and not "hidden" as the DPA states.
I don't mind them showing ALPA finances or an opinion about whether they are healthy but you can't spend 5+ years saying you are going to be better and then not live up to your word. How hard is it to account for $200K? Why hasn't Tim kept up with the books? The DPA asks for money in every update. Where is it going? Almost 3 years worth of donated money is untraceable by members as of today.
I don't mind them showing ALPA finances or an opinion about whether they are healthy but you can't spend 5+ years saying you are going to be better and then not live up to your word. How hard is it to account for $200K? Why hasn't Tim kept up with the books? The DPA asks for money in every update. Where is it going? Almost 3 years worth of donated money is untraceable by members as of today.
Carl
02-21-2015, 12:46 PM
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Position: Right Seat 737, Front seat T-6
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Cricket,
I gave you more credit than this. The whole where did the terrorists come from aside, as a former pointy end of the spear guy, surely you understand the importance of the CRAF to US security strategy and of the US airlines in general to the US economy.
Run on sentence aside, I get your freshman (mis)understanding of bankruptcy laws and the sense that weak companies should disappear...that's only part of the story. When Delta went bankrupt, I held a similar belief...I said often, it sucks to be us. I got hired at FedEx and as a DE capt at emirates, but for me, decided that if Delta went under, my flying days were over. So, I understand what you are saying, but given time I believe your opinion will change. All of this is however, beside the point.
Mideast carriers continue to have a competitive advantage over all US carriers. The playing field isn't level. I don't know if your comment was more of a cheap shot at RA or if you were serious. Despite how it can be portrayed on these boards, we don't have a "cult of Herb" for RA here. He's a solid CEO, easily the best since I've been here, but he's just a man.
I gave you more credit than this. The whole where did the terrorists come from aside, as a former pointy end of the spear guy, surely you understand the importance of the CRAF to US security strategy and of the US airlines in general to the US economy.
Run on sentence aside, I get your freshman (mis)understanding of bankruptcy laws and the sense that weak companies should disappear...that's only part of the story. When Delta went bankrupt, I held a similar belief...I said often, it sucks to be us. I got hired at FedEx and as a DE capt at emirates, but for me, decided that if Delta went under, my flying days were over. So, I understand what you are saying, but given time I believe your opinion will change. All of this is however, beside the point.
Mideast carriers continue to have a competitive advantage over all US carriers. The playing field isn't level. I don't know if your comment was more of a cheap shot at RA or if you were serious. Despite how it can be portrayed on these boards, we don't have a "cult of Herb" for RA here. He's a solid CEO, easily the best since I've been here, but he's just a man.
I do understand CRAF, the importance of US airlines to the US economy, etc. Again, I am honestly trying to learn here (and not being my usual sarcastic, satirical self), but it does seem inconsistent to me for US airlines to take what seems to be government subsides (bankruptcy protections, CRAF, military charters, etc.) but then complain when other airlines get money from their government. Educate me on the difference. Is it that they can have artificially lower prices because of government subsidies? (Similar to companies in bankruptcy that can artificially lower their prices?)
You always have educated responses rather than shrill emotionalism some post on here, so I honestly want to learn.
Finally, it still seems like it was a bad statement by a businessman to link terrorism with Middle East airlines ... One thing for one of us to say it here but for a CEO to say it on international TV was either very low SA or very calculated. The probability that it was the latter sparked my comment about "cheap patriotism."
(Sarcasm back on) Having served for 22 years, I came to realise the service wasn't for American companies, but for the American way of life ... Getting the cheapest deal possible!
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