sailingfun

What were their comments on sick leave? Did they say the company wants to reduce our contractual sick leave?
I have heard them say they want to reduce the rate of sick usage. They are however different statements. Sick leave is another form of insurance for the pilot group. I think the company understands that and is fine with our current levels. What they are not happy about is a small minority of pilots who abuse sick leave.
As far as CDO's and rates of pay the reps were very aware of what was happening and briefed often by the neg. comm.

Scoop

Guys,

I don't recall anyone saying anything about trial balloons or posturing. No one is saying the sky is falling.

What I am saying is that this is what I heard management say they are concerned about - on repeated occasions, in different venues. Specifically Pilot productivity and sick leave usage. As far as rumors - I was in the room and heard it personally I did not get it from Ferris Buellers ex girlfriend at 31 flavors.

Maybe neither issue will come up in the next contract talks but I wouldn't bet on it.

I may not be a trained negotiator, but what is the harm in discussing ways that these two issues and others might be addressed in the upcoming negotiations?

No one is saying that there are specific discussion going on, but if Pilots call there Reps and discuss these issues we might actually be better prepared to handle the negotiations if and when these issues should arise.

Scoop

Denny Crane

Just to play devils advocate, if what you say above actually came true, how would the airline staff for holidays? I can foretell 12,000 pilots using those days to get Christmas off and if they are like an APD, you cannot fly over them period.

I think paid personal days would be great to have and, as a matter of fact, we used to have them. It was called "Authorized Leave." IMO, they should have the same rules as the APD.

Denny

Scoop

PM Sent.

Scoop

NERD

Sailing. In your opinion or what you have heard, what do they define as abuse? 2 per year? 4? All 240 hours each and every year?

RockyBoy

Anyone that uses more than 100 hours of unverified sick time per year is "closely" monitored from what I've heard.

They also have a computer program that determines the statistical probability of abuse. Say you call in sick like clockwork every quarter or maybe you have called in sick on July 20th 5 of the last 7 years. Stuff like that will come up as statistically improbable that you are actually sick.

sailingfun

There is no number. A pilot might use every minute of sick leave and be totally legit. It's not hard in most cases to figure out who abuses the program. If a pilot normally only bids turns but every other month bids a 4 day and sicks out of it for two straight years would you wonder about it? If a pilot has sicked out of every major holiday since he was hired would it raise a eyebrow? How about a guy who sicks out of a trip the week before vacation and then posts on Facebook about his wonderful two week cruise that left the day before his sick Call or the guy who deploys for two weeks with his reserve squadron and sicks out of two trips.
I am not talking about a pilot who calls in sick when sick or even someone who needs a occasional mental health day or has a family issue to take care of. I am talking about obvious patterns of long term abuse.

DARR31

They are also doing this with mil leave as I found out with a call from the CPO last month. They are monitoring everything.....

Puddyhog

There was mention on this thread previously of a document called "What to do when scheduling calls" - there was also a mention of it in Indoc, but I can't find it on the ALPA site nor (obviously) Deltanet. Anyone ever seen/heard of this? Can you share a link?

gloopy

That seems reasonable on the surface, yet can quickly become unreasonable. What if you have kids in daycare/school. Suddenly it makes sense that you may pick something up around the same time per year. What if you have an annual vacation to a particular place and there's some allergen there you're not fully aware of that manifests itself after you get back. Even the "once a quarter" thing can easily be a false positive. Each season comes with its own elevated risk factors for colds, flus and allergens. Add to that we travel all over the place and are stuck in tiny tubes with a zillion strangers who also travel all over the place, force multiplied by constant circadian disruptions, daily radical changes in climate, strange bathrooms, doorknobs, food, currency, etc constantly, etc. Add to that kids (exposed to other kids) and spouses, many of which work in travel, school, healthcare, retail, etc. Add to that a myriad of completely legitimate things that won't be "verifiable" to a doctor. Minor nausea that can't be traced? Slight headache? Better call the Mayo Clinic and go in for full MRI's. Too upset about something at home to safely fly? Gee maybe you should go to a psychologist and get a formal diagnosis.

Then force multiply that with one of the toughest and most restricted standards of "calling in sick" in the world. We have to. We can't just pop an OTC and ironman it like almost everyone else can.

Bottom line is there is no way we can ever have a system, ever, that eliminates all possibilities of "abuse" (even if that's being used right) because they system itself has to be open and flexibile enough in the first place. Doctors notes for everything will not cut it. That is flat out intimidation that will reduce sick calls but will result in pilots flying sick.

The current system is plenty restrictive enough. At the end of the day it comes down to personal integrity and the cost of doing business. What's better and safer: when in doubt call in sick, or when in doubt don't call in sick? The answer is obvious. This isn't just about flying or staying at home with pneumonia or the flu. That's obvious. This is about the myriad of times different pilots in different situations don't feel well enough to fly due to the IMSAFE checklist, but out of fear they will be punished if some "company doctor" can't prove it in all cases they'll just show up to fly. We can't have that, period! We should resist any further attempts to intimidate pilots from calling in sick. We are plenty productive enough, and safety trumps productivity anyway.