Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-02-2014, 06:27 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Hates Commuting
Posts: 957
PBS vs Seniority question
I've read in several DL threads now about how PBS "ignores seniority," particularly with regard to coverage/unstacking.
I don't understand how. In the case of coverage, does it not hit the lowest seniority pilots (subject to availability, pre-awards, etc.)? The PBS Gouge specifically disclaims that seniority is ignored (indeed, it goes so far as to say seniority is protected) wrt to coverage....
So, what am I missing? How/in what way is seniority ignored? Is this only a coverage issue, or are there other aspects in which PBS "ignores seniority" (real or perceived)?
I don't understand how. In the case of coverage, does it not hit the lowest seniority pilots (subject to availability, pre-awards, etc.)? The PBS Gouge specifically disclaims that seniority is ignored (indeed, it goes so far as to say seniority is protected) wrt to coverage....
So, what am I missing? How/in what way is seniority ignored? Is this only a coverage issue, or are there other aspects in which PBS "ignores seniority" (real or perceived)?
12-02-2014, 06:39 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 364
Yes the L in front of the flight numbers is OE. I have picked up a couple and been released from trip. A great White Slip or Swap opportunity if you see them
12-02-2014, 06:54 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
I've read in several DL threads now about how PBS "ignores seniority," particularly with regard to coverage/unstacking.
I don't understand how. In the case of coverage, does it not hit the lowest seniority pilots (subject to availability, pre-awards, etc.)? The PBS Gouge specifically disclaims that seniority is ignored (indeed, it goes so far as to say seniority is protected) wrt to coverage....
So, what am I missing? How/in what way is seniority ignored? Is this only a coverage issue, or are there other aspects in which PBS "ignores seniority" (real or perceived)?
I don't understand how. In the case of coverage, does it not hit the lowest seniority pilots (subject to availability, pre-awards, etc.)? The PBS Gouge specifically disclaims that seniority is ignored (indeed, it goes so far as to say seniority is protected) wrt to coverage....
So, what am I missing? How/in what way is seniority ignored? Is this only a coverage issue, or are there other aspects in which PBS "ignores seniority" (real or perceived)?
PBS does not ignore seniority. PBS is basically a computer program that converts our contract into a schedule.
Let's assume that 1/3 of pilots in a given category have to fly over Christmas, and let's also assume that ever single pilot bids as efficiently as possible to get off on Christmas.
Well guess what? The most junior 1/3 of Pilots will end up flying on Christmas - even though there is open time at other times during the month. This is what are now called "coverage" trips previously known as unstacking.
Even though there are other open trips these junior pilots got Christmas flying forced on there line. But someone has to fly these trips and as long as coverage trips start at the plug and work there way up the seniority list I don't see a problem.
Now is it possible that at some time a more senior pilot got forced into a coverage trip when he should not have? It's possible but hopefully we have worked all the bugs out of the PBS system.
Scoop
12-02-2014, 07:31 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Fairly local
Posts: 1,472
Funny, I was just reading about this today...
PBS builds lines in seniority order. If PBS reaches a point where it estimates that it will end the run with too many open duty periods over a time period, it starts assigning trips from the stacked or uncovered period. Everybody from this point on is vulnerable from the stack. As PBS continues to build, progressively junior pilots will be susceptible to even more stacks of uncovered pairings.
If PBS reaches the bottom of the run and the junior pilots are escaping Coverage awards, it erases the awards from the point that it started coverage and processes the bids again, but starts the coverage from a lower point. If PBS reaches the bottom and there are too many duty periods on a given date, then it goes up to a higher seniority point, erases all of the awards, and starts Coverage from a higher point. This is an internally iterative process.
As PBS builds the lines, secondary stacks build and junior pilots will be susceptible to more Coverage awards.
If PBS reaches the bottom of the run and the junior pilots are escaping Coverage awards, it erases the awards from the point that it started coverage and processes the bids again, but starts the coverage from a lower point. If PBS reaches the bottom and there are too many duty periods on a given date, then it goes up to a higher seniority point, erases all of the awards, and starts Coverage from a higher point. This is an internally iterative process.
As PBS builds the lines, secondary stacks build and junior pilots will be susceptible to more Coverage awards.
12-02-2014, 09:54 PM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
I've read in several DL threads now about how PBS "ignores seniority," particularly with regard to coverage/unstacking.
I don't understand how. In the case of coverage, does it not hit the lowest seniority pilots (subject to availability, pre-awards, etc.)? The PBS Gouge specifically disclaims that seniority is ignored (indeed, it goes so far as to say seniority is protected) wrt to coverage....
So, what am I missing? How/in what way is seniority ignored? Is this only a coverage issue, or are there other aspects in which PBS "ignores seniority" (real or perceived)?
I don't understand how. In the case of coverage, does it not hit the lowest seniority pilots (subject to availability, pre-awards, etc.)? The PBS Gouge specifically disclaims that seniority is ignored (indeed, it goes so far as to say seniority is protected) wrt to coverage....
So, what am I missing? How/in what way is seniority ignored? Is this only a coverage issue, or are there other aspects in which PBS "ignores seniority" (real or perceived)?
The rules and algorithm for how PBS works and what all the bidding options are, are published and anyone who wants to take the time to read/understand/bid can take advantage of them. If someone doesn't want to put in the time and uses a bid of "Award Trips" (extreme example) then of course when a junior guy gets better trips than them it would look to this stupid fellow that his seniority wasn't honored.
If you search on my name for posts and "coverage" and go back a month, you'll find a long post I made detailing how the coverage algorithm really works and techniques to make it work for you.
RK
12-02-2014, 10:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 383
12-02-2014, 11:34 PM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
12-03-2014, 02:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: B737NG-B
Posts: 203
As guys above me said, PBS does NOT ignore seniority, not even in coverage. HOWEVER... it ALSO does not ignore stupidity! Whenever someone senior claims that PBS ignored their seniority and gave something to a junior guy, you're seeing an example of someone who either didn't understand the program or didn't take the time to put in a bid protecting them from what happened.
The rules and algorithm for how PBS works and what all the bidding options are, are published and anyone who wants to take the time to read/understand/bid can take advantage of them. If someone doesn't want to put in the time and uses a bid of "Award Trips" (extreme example) then of course when a junior guy gets better trips than them it would look to this stupid fellow that his seniority wasn't honored.
If you search on my name for posts and "coverage" and go back a month, you'll find a long post I made detailing how the coverage algorithm really works and techniques to make it work for you.
RK
The rules and algorithm for how PBS works and what all the bidding options are, are published and anyone who wants to take the time to read/understand/bid can take advantage of them. If someone doesn't want to put in the time and uses a bid of "Award Trips" (extreme example) then of course when a junior guy gets better trips than them it would look to this stupid fellow that his seniority wasn't honored.
If you search on my name for posts and "coverage" and go back a month, you'll find a long post I made detailing how the coverage algorithm really works and techniques to make it work for you.
RK
Thanks.
12-03-2014, 03:15 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
A few seniority facts for the junior folks.
According to my math we had 241 retirements for 2014 based on the Dec seniority list.
I think we had less than 100 mandatory retirements scheduled.
2015 has 146 mandatory retirements scheduled.
At the start of 2014 I had 1099 guys/gals junior to me on the list
At the start of 2015 I will have 2037 guys/gals junior to me.
That is 938 numbers added to the list for the year.
12,316 total pilots on the list.
12,430 total pilots on the day of the SLI Dec 2008
January classes should put us back over the total number of pilots we had the date of the SLI.
Not a bad year for seniority movement at Delter.
According to my math we had 241 retirements for 2014 based on the Dec seniority list.
I think we had less than 100 mandatory retirements scheduled.
2015 has 146 mandatory retirements scheduled.
At the start of 2014 I had 1099 guys/gals junior to me on the list
At the start of 2015 I will have 2037 guys/gals junior to me.
That is 938 numbers added to the list for the year.
12,316 total pilots on the list.
12,430 total pilots on the day of the SLI Dec 2008
January classes should put us back over the total number of pilots we had the date of the SLI.
Not a bad year for seniority movement at Delter.
So if that 2x actual vs scheduled continues then the 175 2015 retirements could result in 350 leaving and so on.
12-03-2014, 03:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,431
I actually emailed someone somewhere about why the software did that (it did not always do so). After all, prior to a leg departing I--and more importantly, the passengers--only care about when the scheduled arrival is as advertised by DAL. After the leg is completed then yes, the MU is somewhat nice information to have, from a contractual and pay perspective.
I got some answer like "we'll fix it someday." I am not holding my breath--of course it is probably also not important enough to waste heartbeats over.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
