Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-24-2014, 05:57 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Fairly local
Posts: 1,472
09-24-2014, 05:58 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Middle Seat
Posts: 1,228
09-24-2014, 06:18 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Jughead and BB,
What BB wrote is all true--there is no avoiding coverage. HOWEVER, there is a critical point he missed: you are NOT trying to get a "coverage" day off, you're trying to get a normal non-holiday day off. Maybe a weekend, which CAN get coverage assigned out at the very beginning of a month if you're right at the bottom of the list. In any case, if you get assigned a coverage award over the more-difficult-to-cover days you don't care about, that will only make it MORE likely that you get the days off you want, as now there is less credit for your line to award.
BB asked for some schooling on picking amongst coverage, and it applies to your situation, so here it is.
Let's say there are five coverage trips in Nov, one for every weekend and a thanksgiving trip. Let's say you're at the bottom of the lists, within 5 from the bottom and thus you ARE going to get a coverage award. How do you get the one you think is best?
1. Guess where the coverage awards will be... pretty easy. TG, and every weekend.
2. PREFER OFF or AVOID all the trips that might be coveraged. But do it in a cascade-- more avoidance for the ones you really don't want, less avoidance for the best ones, that is lower priority avoids. So:
Prefer off 1st weekend of Nov
Prefer off 2nd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 3rd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 4th weekend of Nov
.....AWARD a coverage-trip over 4th weekend if prefer-off above is denied (example)
Prefer off TG (you really don't care if you work this, see?)
3. NOW, you filter for trips that WILL BE COVERAGED if able, and you by name them in between. You won't get the trip UNLESS first it is indeed a coverage award, or second your stuff gets denied up to that point anyways.
4. When coverage happens, there is more going on than the blurb BB posted. PBS actually comes to your line with a list of coverage trips it has to fill. It looks at your preferences, and tries to stick a coverage trip into your line that honors your preferences-- it actually starts at the top and goes through them with the coverage trips as the "pool" and sees if it can honor your prefers and avoids and still have something LEFT in the coverage pool. If yes, it steps to the next line in your bidgroup, etc., until it realizes it has only one coverage award left. At that point, it DENIES your prefer/avoid and gives you the coverage award.
.......... how's that look to YOU? It looks like a normal bid processing almost with coverage trips as the pool! Let's say it works through your bid, what will it do? It will assign you the coverage trip over TG first, if that's not possible or is gone it will assign the trip over the 4th weekend. Successful coverage? >> you've got your coverage "pre-award", coverage for YOU is done, and PBS then works your regular award. (It may in fact first go on to the next most junior guy and assign coverage out to him, etc. until all coverage is assigned, then back up to top for regular processing; the exact iteration of coverage then regular-awards is unclear to me).
5. Now...let's get more realistic. Let's say that when PBS gets to YOU, there are in fact 100 coverage award trips to be assigned. How do you get the best? By putting an "Award crappy likely-coverage trip #4081 leaving on Sat with redeye (but not so bad as OTHER ****E listed higher up my bid..)" line AFTER your "Avoid crappy likely coverage trip #4081 and other's like it...". If PBS CAN avoid this while giving you coverage, it will do so and try to work down your bid and assign you what you've thus defined as the least onerous coverage trip. If it can't honor your avoid and still have any coverage trips left, then it denies that avoid and looks to see if you if fact have an AWARD that is now active that would allow it to give you one of the remaining coverage trips. Happy Day! Your perspicacious foresight is rewarded, you DO have such a worst-case AWARD, and it gives you #4081.
The pertinent verbiage from the PBS gouge/handbook is actually just after what BB quoted, and here it is:
If I had the source code I could tell you exactly; but for bidding purposes, the gouge I posted in blue is sufficient to create your counter-algorithm.
Best of luck.
What BB wrote is all true--there is no avoiding coverage. HOWEVER, there is a critical point he missed: you are NOT trying to get a "coverage" day off, you're trying to get a normal non-holiday day off. Maybe a weekend, which CAN get coverage assigned out at the very beginning of a month if you're right at the bottom of the list. In any case, if you get assigned a coverage award over the more-difficult-to-cover days you don't care about, that will only make it MORE likely that you get the days off you want, as now there is less credit for your line to award.
BB asked for some schooling on picking amongst coverage, and it applies to your situation, so here it is.
Let's say there are five coverage trips in Nov, one for every weekend and a thanksgiving trip. Let's say you're at the bottom of the lists, within 5 from the bottom and thus you ARE going to get a coverage award. How do you get the one you think is best?
1. Guess where the coverage awards will be... pretty easy. TG, and every weekend.
2. PREFER OFF or AVOID all the trips that might be coveraged. But do it in a cascade-- more avoidance for the ones you really don't want, less avoidance for the best ones, that is lower priority avoids. So:
Prefer off 1st weekend of Nov
Prefer off 2nd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 3rd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 4th weekend of Nov
.....AWARD a coverage-trip over 4th weekend if prefer-off above is denied (example)
Prefer off TG (you really don't care if you work this, see?)
3. NOW, you filter for trips that WILL BE COVERAGED if able, and you by name them in between. You won't get the trip UNLESS first it is indeed a coverage award, or second your stuff gets denied up to that point anyways.
4. When coverage happens, there is more going on than the blurb BB posted. PBS actually comes to your line with a list of coverage trips it has to fill. It looks at your preferences, and tries to stick a coverage trip into your line that honors your preferences-- it actually starts at the top and goes through them with the coverage trips as the "pool" and sees if it can honor your prefers and avoids and still have something LEFT in the coverage pool. If yes, it steps to the next line in your bidgroup, etc., until it realizes it has only one coverage award left. At that point, it DENIES your prefer/avoid and gives you the coverage award.
.......... how's that look to YOU? It looks like a normal bid processing almost with coverage trips as the pool! Let's say it works through your bid, what will it do? It will assign you the coverage trip over TG first, if that's not possible or is gone it will assign the trip over the 4th weekend. Successful coverage? >> you've got your coverage "pre-award", coverage for YOU is done, and PBS then works your regular award. (It may in fact first go on to the next most junior guy and assign coverage out to him, etc. until all coverage is assigned, then back up to top for regular processing; the exact iteration of coverage then regular-awards is unclear to me).
5. Now...let's get more realistic. Let's say that when PBS gets to YOU, there are in fact 100 coverage award trips to be assigned. How do you get the best? By putting an "Award crappy likely-coverage trip #4081 leaving on Sat with redeye (but not so bad as OTHER ****E listed higher up my bid..)" line AFTER your "Avoid crappy likely coverage trip #4081 and other's like it...". If PBS CAN avoid this while giving you coverage, it will do so and try to work down your bid and assign you what you've thus defined as the least onerous coverage trip. If it can't honor your avoid and still have any coverage trips left, then it denies that avoid and looks to see if you if fact have an AWARD that is now active that would allow it to give you one of the remaining coverage trips. Happy Day! Your perspicacious foresight is rewarded, you DO have such a worst-case AWARD, and it gives you #4081.
The pertinent verbiage from the PBS gouge/handbook is actually just after what BB quoted, and here it is:
PBS combines pairings where possible and looks at how the combination meets your preferences. PBS will look at the following in the context of which best meets your bid preferences:
Option 1: Combination of Pairings 1 and 2
Option 2: Pairing 3
PBS Gouge
Last updated 04 Feb 2014 65
Prefer Off (Pairings Bid Group)
PBS next looks through your preferences within the bid group step by step. If a Prefer Off preference is encountered, PBS will look through each of the dates left to right and attempt to honor each one. In the case of a day of the week, PBS will look at each date. For example, Prefer Off Saturday would be processed as Prefer Off Prefer Off December 1, 8, 15, 22, 29. If the Prefer Off preference has an Else Start Next Bid Group and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates within that preference, PBS will jump to the next bid group. If the preference has no Else Start Next and PBS is unable to honor a date, it will simply ignore the date and continue to the right to attempt to honor any other dates or move to the next preference as applicable. If the Prefer Off preference has an All or Nothing clause and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates, it will ignore all of the dates in the preference and move to the next preference, but stay within the bid group.
Avoid
The logic for an Avoid preference is similar to the Prefer Off preference except that PBS will either be able to honor the whole preference or not. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference with an Else Start Next Bid Group, then it will jump to the next bid group. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference without an Else Start Next Bid Group then it will ignore the preference and continue to the next preference.
Award
If a preference is an Award preference, then PBS will award one of the defined pairings or combinations as the Coverage award. PBS will then build the rest of the line around the Coverage award treating the Coverage award like a carry in pairing, vacation, or training.
A limit option can be placed on an Award preference. Coverage is an independent process that precedes the regular award process. PBS will not add any more pairings than specified by the limit during the normal processing after Coverage, but it will not take into account any pairing(s) that were awarded in the Coverage process.
Set Condition
PBS does not consider Set Condition preferences during the coverage process. Set Condition preferences only apply to the normal bid processing. For this reason, it is important to use a Prefer Off and not depend on Set Condition Slide Vacation during periods of unstacking.
Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group
PBS will jump to the next bid group rather than violate a Prefer Off or Avoid preference in a bid group with a Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group. As of October 2011, PBS will not consider the system generated Award Pairings below the CSSN as part of any process including Coverage.
Regular Processing
After PBS has assigned the Coverage pairings or combination of pairings, it processes your bids using the normal processing logic in the same bid group that it covered from except that it starts with the covered pairings on your line. If PBS had to ignore any Prefer Off or Avoid preferences during the coverage process, this is irrelevant to the regular processing.
Translating programming code and iterative loops of how PBS actually works, into English trying to explain to non-programmers how it works, results in inaccuracies. If you read the PBS gouge and try to lawyer the words with "but it says here that this happens..." then you're assuming that the guy who wrote the gouge was ALSO of the programmer's caliber in understanding and was ALSO supreme-court level Lawyer material. Not a good bet. The gouge wording on "If PBS reaches a point where it estimates that it will end the run with too many open duty periods over a time period, it starts assigning trips from the stacked or uncovered period. Everybody from this point on is vulnerable from the stack." is problematic from a programming standpoint, and likely untrue strictly speaking. Predictive algorithms for estimating end-of-run overages are vastly more complicated and less elegant from a programming perspective than what I think actually happens. Most elegant is to just do the run, count how many times a trip can be given out and how many times a trip is denied, and rank order the trips thus. Shuffling algorithms support the view that this is in fact what happens--trips must be ranked to shuffle, and SOME basis must exist for PBS to "estimate" uncovered trips--the basis is a pre-run. It now knows how far up the bids it must go with coverage, and it does so; the iterative process described in the gouge happens after this first hack, when the coverage process itself further limits awards resulting in more coverage trips left over; thus a higher re-start of coverage attempt.Option 1: Combination of Pairings 1 and 2
Option 2: Pairing 3
PBS Gouge
Last updated 04 Feb 2014 65
Prefer Off (Pairings Bid Group)
PBS next looks through your preferences within the bid group step by step. If a Prefer Off preference is encountered, PBS will look through each of the dates left to right and attempt to honor each one. In the case of a day of the week, PBS will look at each date. For example, Prefer Off Saturday would be processed as Prefer Off Prefer Off December 1, 8, 15, 22, 29. If the Prefer Off preference has an Else Start Next Bid Group and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates within that preference, PBS will jump to the next bid group. If the preference has no Else Start Next and PBS is unable to honor a date, it will simply ignore the date and continue to the right to attempt to honor any other dates or move to the next preference as applicable. If the Prefer Off preference has an All or Nothing clause and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates, it will ignore all of the dates in the preference and move to the next preference, but stay within the bid group.
Avoid
The logic for an Avoid preference is similar to the Prefer Off preference except that PBS will either be able to honor the whole preference or not. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference with an Else Start Next Bid Group, then it will jump to the next bid group. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference without an Else Start Next Bid Group then it will ignore the preference and continue to the next preference.
Award
If a preference is an Award preference, then PBS will award one of the defined pairings or combinations as the Coverage award. PBS will then build the rest of the line around the Coverage award treating the Coverage award like a carry in pairing, vacation, or training.
A limit option can be placed on an Award preference. Coverage is an independent process that precedes the regular award process. PBS will not add any more pairings than specified by the limit during the normal processing after Coverage, but it will not take into account any pairing(s) that were awarded in the Coverage process.
Set Condition
PBS does not consider Set Condition preferences during the coverage process. Set Condition preferences only apply to the normal bid processing. For this reason, it is important to use a Prefer Off and not depend on Set Condition Slide Vacation during periods of unstacking.
Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group
PBS will jump to the next bid group rather than violate a Prefer Off or Avoid preference in a bid group with a Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group. As of October 2011, PBS will not consider the system generated Award Pairings below the CSSN as part of any process including Coverage.
Regular Processing
After PBS has assigned the Coverage pairings or combination of pairings, it processes your bids using the normal processing logic in the same bid group that it covered from except that it starts with the covered pairings on your line. If PBS had to ignore any Prefer Off or Avoid preferences during the coverage process, this is irrelevant to the regular processing.
If I had the source code I could tell you exactly; but for bidding purposes, the gouge I posted in blue is sufficient to create your counter-algorithm.
Best of luck.
Needs a sticky.
09-24-2014, 06:30 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Hates Commuting
Posts: 957
Roadkill, awesome gouge--thank you. Generates a couple of follow-up questions for me, though:
Are you saying that having preferences that match coverage trips will result in getting "more" coverage? OR, is this only possible if it matches ALL of my preferences (in which case, WIN!!)? I feel like I'm misunderstanding you--if PBS finds a match to (some? all?) of my preferences in the coverage pool, then assigns me a trip from coverage, am I then "penalized" by getting *more* coverage, because there was a match?
Again, if it's a "complete" match to all of my preferences, then I've gotten what I asked for... except, perhaps, that I didn't want "more" coverage. If that's what's going on, then, I think that's the next topic:
5. Now...let's get more realistic. Let's say that when PBS gets to YOU, there are in fact 100 coverage award trips to be assigned. How do you get the best? By putting an "Award crappy likely-coverage trip #4081 leaving on Sat with redeye (but not so bad as OTHER ****E listed higher up my bid..)" line AFTER your "Avoid crappy likely coverage trip #4081 and other's like it...". If PBS CAN avoid this while giving you coverage, it will do so and try to work down your bid and assign you what you've thus defined as the least onerous coverage trip. If it can't honor your avoid and still have any coverage trips left, then it denies that avoid and looks to see if you if fact have an AWARD that is now active that would allow it to give you one of the remaining coverage trips. Happy Day! Your perspicacious foresight is rewarded, you DO have such a worst-case AWARD, and it gives you #4081.
Assuming I got it right above about "more" coverage if the first attempt at coverage produced a match, I think what you're saying here is a way to "force" what would otherwise appear as a match (and entail an additional round(s) of coverage) to appear as a non-match (and get awarded as coverage and *end* the coverage on my line). Yes?
If not, then I don't understand. If so... well, I still don't quite understand the method. Simpler example for the newbie dummy, please...?
4. When coverage happens, there is more going on than the blurb BB posted. PBS actually comes to your line with a list of coverage trips it has to fill. It looks at your preferences, and tries to stick a coverage trip into your line that honors your preferences-- it actually starts at the top and goes through them with the coverage trips as the "pool" and sees if it can honor your prefers and avoids and still have something LEFT in the coverage pool. If yes, it steps to the next line in your bidgroup, etc., until it realizes it has only one coverage award left. At that point, it DENIES your prefer/avoid and gives you the coverage award.
.......... how's that look to YOU? It looks like a normal bid processing almost with coverage trips as the pool! Let's say it works through your bid, what will it do? It will assign you the coverage trip over TG first, if that's not possible or is gone it will assign the trip over the 4th weekend. Successful coverage? >> you've got your coverage "pre-award", coverage for YOU is done, and PBS then works your regular award. (It may in fact first go on to the next most junior guy and assign coverage out to him, etc. until all coverage is assigned, then back up to top for regular processing; the exact iteration of coverage then regular-awards is unclear to me).
.......... how's that look to YOU? It looks like a normal bid processing almost with coverage trips as the pool! Let's say it works through your bid, what will it do? It will assign you the coverage trip over TG first, if that's not possible or is gone it will assign the trip over the 4th weekend. Successful coverage? >> you've got your coverage "pre-award", coverage for YOU is done, and PBS then works your regular award. (It may in fact first go on to the next most junior guy and assign coverage out to him, etc. until all coverage is assigned, then back up to top for regular processing; the exact iteration of coverage then regular-awards is unclear to me).
Again, if it's a "complete" match to all of my preferences, then I've gotten what I asked for... except, perhaps, that I didn't want "more" coverage. If that's what's going on, then, I think that's the next topic:
5. Now...let's get more realistic. Let's say that when PBS gets to YOU, there are in fact 100 coverage award trips to be assigned. How do you get the best? By putting an "Award crappy likely-coverage trip #4081 leaving on Sat with redeye (but not so bad as OTHER ****E listed higher up my bid..)" line AFTER your "Avoid crappy likely coverage trip #4081 and other's like it...". If PBS CAN avoid this while giving you coverage, it will do so and try to work down your bid and assign you what you've thus defined as the least onerous coverage trip. If it can't honor your avoid and still have any coverage trips left, then it denies that avoid and looks to see if you if fact have an AWARD that is now active that would allow it to give you one of the remaining coverage trips. Happy Day! Your perspicacious foresight is rewarded, you DO have such a worst-case AWARD, and it gives you #4081.
If not, then I don't understand. If so... well, I still don't quite understand the method. Simpler example for the newbie dummy, please...?
09-24-2014, 07:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 282
25 out of 69 A320s have the smaller motors rated at 25,000 lbs. The rest have the 26,500 lb thrust motors.
Both engines have the same flat rated climb power. The weight restrictions are not very common.
I've only seen restrictions going out to BDA when we have to use ORF as an alternate.
Both engines have the same flat rated climb power. The weight restrictions are not very common.
I've only seen restrictions going out to BDA when we have to use ORF as an alternate.
I never understood back with NW why they didn't just bite the bullet and change the engines to standard across. I think all of the 5A1's are SR equipped too.
09-24-2014, 07:26 PM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
Jughead,
Uhm... I think you're right
You don't get MORE coverage if it gives you a coverage trip. And it's smart enough to know that if it has to DENY some (avoid or prefer off) of yours, and THEN there is a match, that it's still a coverage trip.
Remember, that trip is sitting in the "coverage pool" because it already KNOWS that it wasn't able to award it to anyone and no-one wanted it.
I guess if I boiled everything I wrote down, here's an example:
AVOID redeyes to ANC
........AWARD least_Painful_ANC_redeyeTrip
AVOID redeyes
.......AWARD BestRedeyeTrip
........AWARD SecondBestRedeyeTrip
AWARD ActualGoodTrips
=============
If there is anyway possible for PBS to build you a schedule without redeyes, it will just award you ActualGoodTrips. Let's say you're bottom lineholder though, and it can only give you two trips, everything else left is a redeye. So it denies your Avoid Redeyes and it THEN AND ONLY THEN will look at the AwardBestRedeyeTrip line, and give you the best redeye if it's available.
The basic tactic works for coverage AND regular bids if it's well crafted:
AVOID CRAPs
..... List CRAPs to AWARD in the event the AVOID above is deleted!
Uhm... I think you're right
You don't get MORE coverage if it gives you a coverage trip. And it's smart enough to know that if it has to DENY some (avoid or prefer off) of yours, and THEN there is a match, that it's still a coverage trip.
Remember, that trip is sitting in the "coverage pool" because it already KNOWS that it wasn't able to award it to anyone and no-one wanted it.
I guess if I boiled everything I wrote down, here's an example:
AVOID redeyes to ANC
........AWARD least_Painful_ANC_redeyeTrip
AVOID redeyes
.......AWARD BestRedeyeTrip
........AWARD SecondBestRedeyeTrip
AWARD ActualGoodTrips
=============
If there is anyway possible for PBS to build you a schedule without redeyes, it will just award you ActualGoodTrips. Let's say you're bottom lineholder though, and it can only give you two trips, everything else left is a redeye. So it denies your Avoid Redeyes and it THEN AND ONLY THEN will look at the AwardBestRedeyeTrip line, and give you the best redeye if it's available.
The basic tactic works for coverage AND regular bids if it's well crafted:
AVOID CRAPs
..... List CRAPs to AWARD in the event the AVOID above is deleted!
09-25-2014, 05:55 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
09-25-2014, 05:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Hates Commuting
Posts: 957
09-25-2014, 06:14 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
09-25-2014, 06:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
Posts: 1,410
Being the NA launch customer…I'm not sure the A3 was even an option with the initial batch. However, I thought it was just a programming thing with the FADEC to upgrade it (maybe not).
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