Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,016
Are authorized personal drops processed every pcs run? I put one in and it looks like it was ignored this pcs run.
09-24-2014, 01:24 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Hates Commuting
Posts: 957
I think I must've been unclear--I am NOT planning to try to fill up, either in the Reserve sense nor in the way I mis-used the term earlier to refer to trying to do all flying early in the month. Let me put it another way: am I more likely to get a weekend off (assuming I can get even one) early in the month, or later (i.e., closer to the Holiday)? Are you saying coverage renders it moot, and that I'm just as likely to get T-G weekend as I am the earlier one?
I freely admit to not fully understanding either "Coverage" nor "Denial Mode"--I'm spending more time (and less fruitfully) trying to figure out PBS than I did learning to fly the damn airplane....
And: yes, holding on to APD as my "last chance" option. Of course, I may have other time I need it for, so what to do, what to do....
09-24-2014, 01:25 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
They chop them up, fly them out of another base, every trick in the book, to meter out the time (pay) with an eyedropper.
09-24-2014, 01:29 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
If the Company needs XX pilots on Christmas and normal bidding does not give it to them, they will start putting reserve days (or trips if lineholder) on pilots lines without any regard for bidding preferences. THEN after the Company gets the coverage it wants the bids are processed by preferences.
It is impossible to get in front of it unless you have access to some form of leave, training, etc ... .
09-24-2014, 01:29 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,016
Nevermind. Went through. I guess PCS run wasn't over yet.
09-24-2014, 02:22 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 950
). Having thousands of hours in both Boeing and Airbus I can say they both have their pros and cons.The maddog wasn't nearly as bad as they made it out to be. That being said, it wasn't awesome either.
09-24-2014, 02:35 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
Are training expenses automatically calculated and applied to your paycheck these days? I thought a few years ago there was a change announced that training expenses were automatically calculated and paid. The thought I had at the time was "What training expenses?"
Is per diem automatically included/calculated for training? Other than cabs, tips, etc (none incurred) is there any reason to be concerned about "Training Expenses"?
Is per diem automatically included/calculated for training? Other than cabs, tips, etc (none incurred) is there any reason to be concerned about "Training Expenses"?
09-24-2014, 02:39 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
09-24-2014, 02:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 950
09-24-2014, 03:20 PM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
First, WELCOME ABOARD!
What you wrote is logical, so no.
Read about
coverage awards , or as we used to call it; unstacking.
There is no "filling up" to escape coverage awards because trips for coverage are awarded BEFORE your preferences are awarded, as follows:
So after coverage is stuck on your line, THEN you bid preferences and "Else Start Next" commands are processed.
I made the same mistake you are starting to make (and ironically it worked quite by accident, convincing me I was right). If you try to "fill up" all you will do is fly more with whatever you bid the rest of the month also.
Going into the fall we are still short on all the narrow body categories I've looked at. Best to bid only what you want and try to "fill up" with greenslips
Often I bid partial days on days I know I'm going to get stuck with ... red eyes back into base and late duty in's are one way to make the games, performances and family events that you do not want to miss.
You can also use your Authorized Personal Drop if the day you so badly need is NOT on, or adjacent to, a Holiday.
Perhaps someone can school me, but assignment of coverage awards appears to be damn near random. As a 75%'r I see better coverage trips going to places I want to go awarded to junior pilots. Maybe a real guru can help us understand why we can not bid within coverage ... a kind of "If awarded trips for coverage, prefer overnights in BOG, and CCS" ... it would seem that could work and still get the Company's flying covered. Lord knows I love me some $65 pizzas while wearing deet and hiding from kidnappers.
What you wrote is logical, so no.
Read about
coverage awards , or as we used to call it; unstacking.There is no "filling up" to escape coverage awards because trips for coverage are awarded BEFORE your preferences are awarded, as follows:
So after coverage is stuck on your line, THEN you bid preferences and "Else Start Next" commands are processed.
I made the same mistake you are starting to make (and ironically it worked quite by accident, convincing me I was right). If you try to "fill up" all you will do is fly more with whatever you bid the rest of the month also.
Going into the fall we are still short on all the narrow body categories I've looked at. Best to bid only what you want and try to "fill up" with greenslips
Often I bid partial days on days I know I'm going to get stuck with ... red eyes back into base and late duty in's are one way to make the games, performances and family events that you do not want to miss.
You can also use your Authorized Personal Drop if the day you so badly need is NOT on, or adjacent to, a Holiday.
Perhaps someone can school me, but assignment of coverage awards appears to be damn near random. As a 75%'r I see better coverage trips going to places I want to go awarded to junior pilots. Maybe a real guru can help us understand why we can not bid within coverage ... a kind of "If awarded trips for coverage, prefer overnights in BOG, and CCS" ... it would seem that could work and still get the Company's flying covered. Lord knows I love me some $65 pizzas while wearing deet and hiding from kidnappers.
What BB wrote is all true--there is no avoiding coverage. HOWEVER, there is a critical point he missed: you are NOT trying to get a "coverage" day off, you're trying to get a normal non-holiday day off. Maybe a weekend, which CAN get coverage assigned out at the very beginning of a month if you're right at the bottom of the list. In any case, if you get assigned a coverage award over the more-difficult-to-cover days you don't care about, that will only make it MORE likely that you get the days off you want, as now there is less credit for your line to award.
BB asked for some schooling on picking amongst coverage, and it applies to your situation, so here it is.
Let's say there are five coverage trips in Nov, one for every weekend and a thanksgiving trip. Let's say you're at the bottom of the lists, within 5 from the bottom and thus you ARE going to get a coverage award. How do you get the one you think is best?
1. Guess where the coverage awards will be... pretty easy. TG, and every weekend.
2. PREFER OFF or AVOID all the trips that might be coveraged. But do it in a cascade-- more avoidance for the ones you really don't want, less avoidance for the best ones, that is lower priority avoids. So:
Prefer off 1st weekend of Nov
Prefer off 2nd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 3rd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 4th weekend of Nov
.....AWARD a coverage-trip over 4th weekend if prefer-off above is denied (example)
Prefer off TG (you really don't care if you work this, see?)
3. NOW, you filter for trips that WILL BE COVERAGED if able, and you by name them in between. You won't get the trip UNLESS first it is indeed a coverage award, or second your stuff gets denied up to that point anyways.
4. When coverage happens, there is more going on than the blurb BB posted. PBS actually comes to your line with a list of coverage trips it has to fill. It looks at your preferences, and tries to stick a coverage trip into your line that honors your preferences-- it actually starts at the top and goes through them with the coverage trips as the "pool" and sees if it can honor your prefers and avoids and still have something LEFT in the coverage pool. If yes, it steps to the next line in your bidgroup, etc., until it realizes it has only one coverage award left. At that point, it DENIES your prefer/avoid and gives you the coverage award.
.......... how's that look to YOU? It looks like a normal bid processing almost with coverage trips as the pool! Let's say it works through your bid, what will it do? It will assign you the coverage trip over TG first, if that's not possible or is gone it will assign the trip over the 4th weekend. Successful coverage? >> you've got your coverage "pre-award", coverage for YOU is done, and PBS then works your regular award. (It may in fact first go on to the next most junior guy and assign coverage out to him, etc. until all coverage is assigned, then back up to top for regular processing; the exact iteration of coverage then regular-awards is unclear to me).
5. Now...let's get more realistic. Let's say that when PBS gets to YOU, there are in fact 100 coverage award trips to be assigned. How do you get the best? By putting an "Award crappy likely-coverage trip #4081 leaving on Sat with redeye (but not so bad as OTHER ****E listed higher up my bid..)" line AFTER your "Avoid crappy likely coverage trip #4081 and other's like it...". If PBS CAN avoid this while giving you coverage, it will do so and try to work down your bid and assign you what you've thus defined as the least onerous coverage trip. If it can't honor your avoid and still have any coverage trips left, then it denies that avoid and looks to see if you if fact have an AWARD that is now active that would allow it to give you one of the remaining coverage trips. Happy Day! Your perspicacious foresight is rewarded, you DO have such a worst-case AWARD, and it gives you #4081.
The pertinent verbiage from the PBS gouge/handbook is actually just after what BB quoted, and here it is:
PBS combines pairings where possible and looks at how the combination meets your preferences. PBS will look at the following in the context of which best meets your bid preferences:
Option 1: Combination of Pairings 1 and 2
Option 2: Pairing 3
PBS Gouge
Last updated 04 Feb 2014 65
Prefer Off (Pairings Bid Group)
PBS next looks through your preferences within the bid group step by step. If a Prefer Off preference is encountered, PBS will look through each of the dates left to right and attempt to honor each one. In the case of a day of the week, PBS will look at each date. For example, Prefer Off Saturday would be processed as Prefer Off Prefer Off December 1, 8, 15, 22, 29. If the Prefer Off preference has an Else Start Next Bid Group and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates within that preference, PBS will jump to the next bid group. If the preference has no Else Start Next and PBS is unable to honor a date, it will simply ignore the date and continue to the right to attempt to honor any other dates or move to the next preference as applicable. If the Prefer Off preference has an All or Nothing clause and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates, it will ignore all of the dates in the preference and move to the next preference, but stay within the bid group.
Avoid
The logic for an Avoid preference is similar to the Prefer Off preference except that PBS will either be able to honor the whole preference or not. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference with an Else Start Next Bid Group, then it will jump to the next bid group. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference without an Else Start Next Bid Group then it will ignore the preference and continue to the next preference.
Award
If a preference is an Award preference, then PBS will award one of the defined pairings or combinations as the Coverage award. PBS will then build the rest of the line around the Coverage award treating the Coverage award like a carry in pairing, vacation, or training.
A limit option can be placed on an Award preference. Coverage is an independent process that precedes the regular award process. PBS will not add any more pairings than specified by the limit during the normal processing after Coverage, but it will not take into account any pairing(s) that were awarded in the Coverage process.
Set Condition
PBS does not consider Set Condition preferences during the coverage process. Set Condition preferences only apply to the normal bid processing. For this reason, it is important to use a Prefer Off and not depend on Set Condition Slide Vacation during periods of unstacking.
Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group
PBS will jump to the next bid group rather than violate a Prefer Off or Avoid preference in a bid group with a Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group. As of October 2011, PBS will not consider the system generated Award Pairings below the CSSN as part of any process including Coverage.
Regular Processing
After PBS has assigned the Coverage pairings or combination of pairings, it processes your bids using the normal processing logic in the same bid group that it covered from except that it starts with the covered pairings on your line. If PBS had to ignore any Prefer Off or Avoid preferences during the coverage process, this is irrelevant to the regular processing.
Translating programming code and iterative loops of how PBS actually works, into English trying to explain to non-programmers how it works, results in inaccuracies. If you read the PBS gouge and try to lawyer the words with "but it says here that this happens..." then you're assuming that the guy who wrote the gouge was ALSO of the programmer's caliber in understanding and was ALSO supreme-court level Lawyer material. Not a good bet. The gouge wording on "If PBS reaches a point where it estimates that it will end the run with too many open duty periods over a time period, it starts assigning trips from the stacked or uncovered period. Everybody from this point on is vulnerable from the stack." is problematic from a programming standpoint, and likely untrue strictly speaking. Predictive algorithms for estimating end-of-run overages are vastly more complicated and less elegant from a programming perspective than what I think actually happens. Most elegant is to just do the run, count how many times a trip can be given out and how many times a trip is denied, and rank order the trips thus. Shuffling algorithms support the view that this is in fact what happens--trips must be ranked to shuffle, and SOME basis must exist for PBS to "estimate" uncovered trips--the basis is a pre-run. It now knows how far up the bids it must go with coverage, and it does so; the iterative process described in the gouge happens after this first hack, when the coverage process itself further limits awards resulting in more coverage trips left over; thus a higher re-start of coverage attempt.Option 1: Combination of Pairings 1 and 2
Option 2: Pairing 3
PBS Gouge
Last updated 04 Feb 2014 65
Prefer Off (Pairings Bid Group)
PBS next looks through your preferences within the bid group step by step. If a Prefer Off preference is encountered, PBS will look through each of the dates left to right and attempt to honor each one. In the case of a day of the week, PBS will look at each date. For example, Prefer Off Saturday would be processed as Prefer Off Prefer Off December 1, 8, 15, 22, 29. If the Prefer Off preference has an Else Start Next Bid Group and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates within that preference, PBS will jump to the next bid group. If the preference has no Else Start Next and PBS is unable to honor a date, it will simply ignore the date and continue to the right to attempt to honor any other dates or move to the next preference as applicable. If the Prefer Off preference has an All or Nothing clause and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates, it will ignore all of the dates in the preference and move to the next preference, but stay within the bid group.
Avoid
The logic for an Avoid preference is similar to the Prefer Off preference except that PBS will either be able to honor the whole preference or not. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference with an Else Start Next Bid Group, then it will jump to the next bid group. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference without an Else Start Next Bid Group then it will ignore the preference and continue to the next preference.
Award
If a preference is an Award preference, then PBS will award one of the defined pairings or combinations as the Coverage award. PBS will then build the rest of the line around the Coverage award treating the Coverage award like a carry in pairing, vacation, or training.
A limit option can be placed on an Award preference. Coverage is an independent process that precedes the regular award process. PBS will not add any more pairings than specified by the limit during the normal processing after Coverage, but it will not take into account any pairing(s) that were awarded in the Coverage process.
Set Condition
PBS does not consider Set Condition preferences during the coverage process. Set Condition preferences only apply to the normal bid processing. For this reason, it is important to use a Prefer Off and not depend on Set Condition Slide Vacation during periods of unstacking.
Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group
PBS will jump to the next bid group rather than violate a Prefer Off or Avoid preference in a bid group with a Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group. As of October 2011, PBS will not consider the system generated Award Pairings below the CSSN as part of any process including Coverage.
Regular Processing
After PBS has assigned the Coverage pairings or combination of pairings, it processes your bids using the normal processing logic in the same bid group that it covered from except that it starts with the covered pairings on your line. If PBS had to ignore any Prefer Off or Avoid preferences during the coverage process, this is irrelevant to the regular processing.
If I had the source code I could tell you exactly; but for bidding purposes, the gouge I posted in blue is sufficient to create your counter-algorithm.
Best of luck.
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