Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-19-2014, 09:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,169
Sweet Jesus. I just checked in here during a nice long vacation to see what's going on. So far it appears all I missed was Carl's return, and tired old strategy of repeating the same BS over and over hoping someone will mistake it for the truth.
Do I get to drink every time Carl says "top down"?
Carl, are you guys gonna finally stand down your campaign, as promised, now that we're approaching 2015? It's beyond tired now. What exactly are you attempting to achieve here?
My favorite part is how you DPA'ers recoil anytime someone suggests you do some actual union work. If it were such a good deal I would think you'd be all over it. Guess its easier to complain about the efforts of others.
Do I get to drink every time Carl says "top down"?
Carl, are you guys gonna finally stand down your campaign, as promised, now that we're approaching 2015? It's beyond tired now. What exactly are you attempting to achieve here?
My favorite part is how you DPA'ers recoil anytime someone suggests you do some actual union work. If it were such a good deal I would think you'd be all over it. Guess its easier to complain about the efforts of others.
07-19-2014, 09:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
In C2012, the contract comparison was slanted to show our contract as being better than it was. Also, it excluded our code share/JV competitors. When DALPA was called out on this, their response was to say they couldn't release the contract details of our JV competitors because they were asked not to do so.
I agree that it would have been useful to see what our JV partners make and that it's unfortunate that our reps were not allowed to put it out.
07-19-2014, 09:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Rotation pay will certainly be much better with the 5:15 ADG for regular and reserve. It remains to be seen how that will affect commutability and other QOL factors in rotation construction.
We still don't have as much vacation or sick leave as we used to have, and the senior lost a lot when we gave up trips touching for vacation in 1996. That said, the senior pilots' loss was the junior pilots' gain. Now, everyone "drops" exactly 22:45 worth of flying for every week of vacation in PBS.
To me, the bottom line is that I still do not bring home nearly the same amount of money, let alone buying power, per TAFH (time away from home) as my predecessors did in 2004.
07-19-2014, 09:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
I'm looking through the last comparison now. It looks to me almost identical to the ones put out recently by the APA and SWAPA. In what way was ours slanted to make our contract look better?
I agree that it would have been useful to see what our JV partners make and that it's unfortunate that our reps were not allowed to put it out.
I agree that it would have been useful to see what our JV partners make and that it's unfortunate that our reps were not allowed to put it out.
It was a timing thing, so my rep. then said. (Last Capt Rep SEA)
So, Alan.
Please tell us why they wouldn't be allowed to put out information comparing us to our JV partners?
I am sure with one or two well placed emails, that information can be attained in this digital age regardless of whether they include the JV partners on this next comparison or not.
07-19-2014, 09:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
What's funny is that you THINK I am being biased. I am not. I told you I would have defended anyone who did that. As, I pointed out, I do it, too. Being on national TV, doesn't matter. I would understand why anyone would try to continue that interview. She asked one question after the initial "Howard Stern" reply, then indicated she didn't hear him afterwards.
If you really think that that one extra question is indicative of being ditzy, I would caution you not to employ that belief in real life.
My experience has taught me that there is never anything wrong with one extra question, no matter where you are.
If you really think that that one extra question is indicative of being ditzy, I would caution you not to employ that belief in real life.
My experience has taught me that there is never anything wrong with one extra question, no matter where you are.
07-19-2014, 09:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Hey Shiz.
Got to go straight pay to straight pay. Can't add profit sharing into the equation.
Same applies to you.... Why are you adding all kinds of "non-pay table" things below.
Fact is, they beat us straight up, which is a good thing.
They do in 2016 by using the awful "me-too" clause, not really lifting the bar on their own accord, just adjusting to "industry average", which doesn't really push everyone higher.
All numbers directly from the USAirways merger transition agreement. So, as you can see, they have already raised the bar.
Can you please quote the pages in their CBA so I can verify them? I gave every UAL and AAL CBA page reference for my response.
Side note. Those that say we don't have leverage. You are not correct. We need unity. Once we have unity we have all the leverage we need.
Don't think so? Just wander over to the Cargo forum and read about the drafts happening now and the resulting service failures at FedEx.
I completely agree with this. The DPA drive and the ad hominem attacks on our association and it's volunteer corps is a detriment to the unity that you and I seek.
Here is the truth. There are no offical document page references, see above.
Read below to see how they eventually top Delta by $40 per hour in the 767-400, a330 etc. You're comparing apples to oranges here, I got called out for it, you shouldn't do it either.
THE USAIRWAYS MERGER TRANSITION AGREEMENT
Effective on the the date of P.O.R. Which is 12/9/13.
First, some work rules. Ok, I'll go with you on this anyway.
This agreement provides for a 1:2 for sit times in excess of two hours.
Is this in addition to block pay or added to sequence credit?
Distance learning: 50% of hourly rate. Same as DAL
Training: 4:00 per day. (Delta 3:45) Above DAL by :15/day. Nice, I want 5:15.
January 2014: 16% Plus 1% for AAL.
Sick: Definitely an apples to oranges here, I find it hard to even compare.
5 hours accrued per month Only 60 hr. yr? DAL gets almost 3x that.
60 short term banked
940 long terms bank
1000 total and with rollover. A DAL pilots at top exceeds 1000 in 4 years.
Allowed to sell back. A concession that reduces pilot staffing, but is $$$.
Do we want $$$ or staffing?
Rapid re-accrual of 7.5 hrs if out more than 30 days
United has 7hrs
Delta no rapid re-accrual, no rollover, no sell back and capped at 270 max.
Home basing in cities that support it. Staffing concession, but might enhance some pilots QOL, big unknown if that is better or worse.
Overall it is a completely different system apples to oranges, opinion on better or worse.
You left out the reserve rules and the fact they only get 50% for premium pay and reroutes... That makes a dent in earnings. Remember 50% GS's? DAL got rid of that with LOA 19! Who knows, maybe they'll use their $40m in yearly improvements to chip away at that over time.
COMPENSATION: All 12 year rates. 777 rates reflect group 4 which include 777, 767-4, 787, 340.
On POR, the first raise came.
A320 capt. 167.68. F/O 114.02
B777 capt. 213.02. F/O 144.00
January 2014. 8% increase.
A320 capt. 181.00. F/O 123.14
B777 capt. 230.06. F/O 156.44
January 2015. 3% increase.
A320 capt. 186.53. F/O 236.06
B777 capt. 236.00. F/O 161.00
January 2016. 16.5% increase. (please show the contract page reference)
A320 capt. 217.24. F/O 147.72
capt. (UA 217.52 + DL 209.31)/2 = $213.41
F/O (UA 148.57 + DL 142.96)/2 = $145.65
B777 capt. 275.98. F/O 187.67
capt. (UA 270.25 + DL 270.25)/2 = $270.25
F/O (UA 184.59 + DL 184.59)/2 = $184.59
If needed, on January 2017 a 3.5% increase. On January 2018, a 3.5% increase. Please give CBA page ref., the APA CBA I have shows 2.0% or average, whichever is greater. If DAL doesn't get a new deal in 2017, they will only get the 2.0%.
You may be right on the 3.5%, I think they may have traded away PS for the extra 1.5%, not sure.
Why if needed you might ask? Here is the rest of the story.
From the MTA:
"MTA provides parity review that compares DAL and UAL as of January 1, 2016. The parity review will use the average of the DAL and UAL pay rates of the A320 and the 737-800 aircraft weighted for the ASM's flown by each airline."
The other groups will be adjusted from there.
Now, when the APA (USAPA will be offered a seat at the table along with the west pilots) negotiates their JCBA, these numbers can change. Likely up, not expecting down. The "UP" has already been determined that they get a fixed dollar amount (roughly $40m yr.) in improvements each year over the life of the JCBA, don't expect improvements equal to DAL LOA 19. (I admit I can't find the exact reference on this.)
Other considerations. AMR pilots getting near $100k each from their portion of the company on exit/merger. Frozen DB plans.
You'll have to show some references to help calculate value, the AMR pilots in my crashpad are lamenting that the increase in stock price is making their equity stake nearly worthless but I don't have their specifics.
NWA pilots have a frozen DB also and $672m in claim(after sale) and lump sum, the BK for Delta pilots resulted in $1.911b in claim(after sale) and note. The DAL/NWA pilots also recieved 5.3% equity in the new company worth $1.66b today. Not including frozen DB and PBGC, the total value with stock set at the 2009 award price, the DAL/NWA pilot's BK/Merger cash value is $2.991 billion.
I'll take the DAL/NWA accomplishment.
Overall, the APA did well. If we are still in section six in 2017-18, they top us by $40 per on the 330/767-4.
Here's the truth. No they don't. I showed you their actual pay tables with page references. The difference will be roughly +$11.50 variable with the detail in the weighting formula.
I still believe we need to include PS in the calc too, but I'll leave it out.
That was a pretty nice bar they set. It was great for BK deal, made much easier by DAL and UAL, along with the fact AMR entered BK with way too much cash and not requiring DIP financing.
Personally, I'd never complain about the 4 hour penalty lap in Atlanta if we had their 1:2 after a two hour sit. Agreed, I complain about how behind my contract was in comparison to Delta and United's, and that I lost hundreds of thousands of dollars over the last 10 years while stagnating with and "all or nothing" negotiating strategy. If I was more senior, I'd be ****ed at how much more the DAL pilots got out of their claim/note/lumpsum/equity than I got from AAL.
The extra cabbage they get in the 401k be nice too. Have at it, with the DAL PS plan and overall PWA, the extra cabbage is way better.
Got to go straight pay to straight pay. Can't add profit sharing into the equation.
Same applies to you.... Why are you adding all kinds of "non-pay table" things below.
Fact is, they beat us straight up, which is a good thing.
They do in 2016 by using the awful "me-too" clause, not really lifting the bar on their own accord, just adjusting to "industry average", which doesn't really push everyone higher.
All numbers directly from the USAirways merger transition agreement. So, as you can see, they have already raised the bar.
Can you please quote the pages in their CBA so I can verify them? I gave every UAL and AAL CBA page reference for my response.
Side note. Those that say we don't have leverage. You are not correct. We need unity. Once we have unity we have all the leverage we need.
Don't think so? Just wander over to the Cargo forum and read about the drafts happening now and the resulting service failures at FedEx.
I completely agree with this. The DPA drive and the ad hominem attacks on our association and it's volunteer corps is a detriment to the unity that you and I seek.
Here is the truth. There are no offical document page references, see above.
Read below to see how they eventually top Delta by $40 per hour in the 767-400, a330 etc. You're comparing apples to oranges here, I got called out for it, you shouldn't do it either.
THE USAIRWAYS MERGER TRANSITION AGREEMENT
Effective on the the date of P.O.R. Which is 12/9/13.
First, some work rules. Ok, I'll go with you on this anyway.
This agreement provides for a 1:2 for sit times in excess of two hours.
Is this in addition to block pay or added to sequence credit?
Distance learning: 50% of hourly rate. Same as DAL
Training: 4:00 per day. (Delta 3:45) Above DAL by :15/day. Nice, I want 5:15.
January 2014: 16% Plus 1% for AAL.
Sick: Definitely an apples to oranges here, I find it hard to even compare.
5 hours accrued per month Only 60 hr. yr? DAL gets almost 3x that.
60 short term banked
940 long terms bank
1000 total and with rollover. A DAL pilots at top exceeds 1000 in 4 years.
Allowed to sell back. A concession that reduces pilot staffing, but is $$$.
Do we want $$$ or staffing?
Rapid re-accrual of 7.5 hrs if out more than 30 days
United has 7hrs
Delta no rapid re-accrual, no rollover, no sell back and capped at 270 max.
Home basing in cities that support it. Staffing concession, but might enhance some pilots QOL, big unknown if that is better or worse.
Overall it is a completely different system apples to oranges, opinion on better or worse.
You left out the reserve rules and the fact they only get 50% for premium pay and reroutes... That makes a dent in earnings. Remember 50% GS's? DAL got rid of that with LOA 19! Who knows, maybe they'll use their $40m in yearly improvements to chip away at that over time.
COMPENSATION: All 12 year rates. 777 rates reflect group 4 which include 777, 767-4, 787, 340.
On POR, the first raise came.
A320 capt. 167.68. F/O 114.02
B777 capt. 213.02. F/O 144.00
January 2014. 8% increase.
A320 capt. 181.00. F/O 123.14
B777 capt. 230.06. F/O 156.44
January 2015. 3% increase.
A320 capt. 186.53. F/O 236.06
B777 capt. 236.00. F/O 161.00
January 2016. 16.5% increase. (please show the contract page reference)
A320 capt. 217.24. F/O 147.72
capt. (UA 217.52 + DL 209.31)/2 = $213.41
F/O (UA 148.57 + DL 142.96)/2 = $145.65
B777 capt. 275.98. F/O 187.67
capt. (UA 270.25 + DL 270.25)/2 = $270.25
F/O (UA 184.59 + DL 184.59)/2 = $184.59
If needed, on January 2017 a 3.5% increase. On January 2018, a 3.5% increase. Please give CBA page ref., the APA CBA I have shows 2.0% or average, whichever is greater. If DAL doesn't get a new deal in 2017, they will only get the 2.0%.
You may be right on the 3.5%, I think they may have traded away PS for the extra 1.5%, not sure.
Why if needed you might ask? Here is the rest of the story.
From the MTA:
"MTA provides parity review that compares DAL and UAL as of January 1, 2016. The parity review will use the average of the DAL and UAL pay rates of the A320 and the 737-800 aircraft weighted for the ASM's flown by each airline."
The other groups will be adjusted from there.
Now, when the APA (USAPA will be offered a seat at the table along with the west pilots) negotiates their JCBA, these numbers can change. Likely up, not expecting down. The "UP" has already been determined that they get a fixed dollar amount (roughly $40m yr.) in improvements each year over the life of the JCBA, don't expect improvements equal to DAL LOA 19. (I admit I can't find the exact reference on this.)
Other considerations. AMR pilots getting near $100k each from their portion of the company on exit/merger. Frozen DB plans.
You'll have to show some references to help calculate value, the AMR pilots in my crashpad are lamenting that the increase in stock price is making their equity stake nearly worthless but I don't have their specifics.
NWA pilots have a frozen DB also and $672m in claim(after sale) and lump sum, the BK for Delta pilots resulted in $1.911b in claim(after sale) and note. The DAL/NWA pilots also recieved 5.3% equity in the new company worth $1.66b today. Not including frozen DB and PBGC, the total value with stock set at the 2009 award price, the DAL/NWA pilot's BK/Merger cash value is $2.991 billion.
I'll take the DAL/NWA accomplishment.
Overall, the APA did well. If we are still in section six in 2017-18, they top us by $40 per on the 330/767-4.
Here's the truth. No they don't. I showed you their actual pay tables with page references. The difference will be roughly +$11.50 variable with the detail in the weighting formula.
I still believe we need to include PS in the calc too, but I'll leave it out.
That was a pretty nice bar they set. It was great for BK deal, made much easier by DAL and UAL, along with the fact AMR entered BK with way too much cash and not requiring DIP financing.
Personally, I'd never complain about the 4 hour penalty lap in Atlanta if we had their 1:2 after a two hour sit. Agreed, I complain about how behind my contract was in comparison to Delta and United's, and that I lost hundreds of thousands of dollars over the last 10 years while stagnating with and "all or nothing" negotiating strategy. If I was more senior, I'd be ****ed at how much more the DAL pilots got out of their claim/note/lumpsum/equity than I got from AAL.
The extra cabbage they get in the 401k be nice too. Have at it, with the DAL PS plan and overall PWA, the extra cabbage is way better.
We both want to keep moving up the ladder rungs, and the ladder in finally being climbed instead of descended. The biggest thing that AA did was to eliminate the Airways anchor, and to bring the industry floor up considerably. I think DALPA will be able to leverage the "me too" and the UAL's exceeding of our rates in 2016 as a lever point to boost us. Remember that in C2012, we were an average of about 14% ABOVE UAL,CAL,AA,LCC already, and we were able to land a 10.76% rate raise on the amendable date (I don't accept 12.84%, the PS was a trade, not a raise). That put DAL nearly 25% above their legacy peers; and forced AMR and UAL management to pull their offers and increase them substantially. So with the AA "me too", I believe it gives DAL a chance to force a portion (AMR) of the peer group to a much higher level than AMR management wants to pay, and will degrade the UAL pilot motivation when it sinks in how screwed they got by signing a 6 year deal in the middle of an "up cycle".
Help the pilots you fly with to get unified now, so when the time comes to flex our collective muscle DAL mgt. will know that 12,000+ pilots are right behind their MEC giving them leverage.
Green bag tags and "other" tie pins do not convey that we are ready and unified to obtain the 'historic' contract we desire. It actually gives management leverage to NOT provide us with a leading contract.
Support ALPA.
Support your MEC.
Support your NC.
Do it visibly, do it vocally.
Anything less is going to take money out of our own pockets.
07-19-2014, 09:38 AM
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
07-19-2014, 09:43 AM
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
My favorite part is how you DPA'ers
Last edited by Purple Drank; 07-19-2014 at 09:54 AM.
07-19-2014, 09:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 770
Newnan is also a good option, unless you've just got to have the golf cart.
07-19-2014, 09:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,308
You say union "leader" like its a bad thing. You mean the guys who led us through the worst decade this industry has seen? The guys who set the bar so United needed almost a 50% pay raise in some seats to catch up? If they're here, I'm glad. Much better than guys like you, P, and The M, who just pick things apart and offer no solutions to anything.
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