Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-18-2014, 08:18 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Actually, I've had numerous reps tell me that's exactly how you referred to them when they didn't instantly accept your opinions as fact. One said you have a unique way of making people feel inconsequential and invisible. I've seen you behave this exact same way here.
Yet another classic straw man. Nobody has called it "non-democratic" except you. Nobody. Now you accuse Fly4hire of insinuating pilots to be lazy, stupid and weak for a premise that only you are espousing. Everyone sees this Alfa. You're not fooling anyone.
Carl
Yet another classic straw man. Nobody has called it "non-democratic" except you. Nobody. Now you accuse Fly4hire of insinuating pilots to be lazy, stupid and weak for a premise that only you are espousing. Everyone sees this Alfa. You're not fooling anyone.
Carl
07-18-2014, 08:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Do all ALPA workers have this much disdain for non-volunteers who are merely dues paying members? Is this something you're taught on day one? Really, I had no idea because all the volunteers I've dealt with have always been very professional, generous with their time, and willing to hear my concerns. But maybe when you're behind your keyboard you can let your true feelings run wild. At ALPA meetings while you're having a beer at my expense do you share your disgust for the members who merely just pay their dues? 
If you're going to call someone out for using the internet to exchange thoughts and ideas while desiring to remain anonymous then maybe you should use your real name in your signature. That said, don't expect a name--the TOS doesn't require it.
If you're going to call someone out for using the internet to exchange thoughts and ideas while desiring to remain anonymous then maybe you should use your real name in your signature. That said, don't expect a name--the TOS doesn't require it.I've got no a problem with a "no voter", but I do have a problem with a member who insults the intelligence, efforts, and motivation of other members using nothing but preconceived fallacious notions, rumors, lies, and vitriol.
Vote yes, vote no, I don't give a flying ******* either way, but its supremely disrespectful and unprofessional to channel that onto lobbing personal attacks against those who do step forward and work for their fellow pilots.
07-18-2014, 08:21 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Fair enough, the diff will only be around $11.50 by excluding it as I clearly posted.
The +PS was separately shown after the straight calculation, just to show a more complete "big picture view" of what is working for a pilot in Section 3. I find it less than accurate to not factor in the primary ways of accruing income in the PWA, especially when it is a direct add-on in percentage points to the pay hours received for a year of employment.
It would have been better "forum decorum" to post that separately I suppose. The intent was to dispel the "$40/hr more" fallacy. I hope that part was demonstrated clearly.
The +PS was separately shown after the straight calculation, just to show a more complete "big picture view" of what is working for a pilot in Section 3. I find it less than accurate to not factor in the primary ways of accruing income in the PWA, especially when it is a direct add-on in percentage points to the pay hours received for a year of employment.
It would have been better "forum decorum" to post that separately I suppose. The intent was to dispel the "$40/hr more" fallacy. I hope that part was demonstrated clearly.
07-18-2014, 08:24 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
07-18-2014, 08:26 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
It's not disdain for non-volunteers... It's disdain for uninformed comments that personally denigrate people he knows nothing about, and disparaging the people who have stepped up to try and improve things.
I've got no a problem with a "no voter", but I do have a problem with a member who insults the intelligence, efforts, and motivation of other members using nothing but preconceived fallacious notions, rumors, lies, and vitriol.
Vote yes, vote no, I don't give a flying ******* either way, but its supremely disrespectful and unprofessional to channel that onto lobbing personal attacks against those who do step forward and work for their fellow pilots.
I've got no a problem with a "no voter", but I do have a problem with a member who insults the intelligence, efforts, and motivation of other members using nothing but preconceived fallacious notions, rumors, lies, and vitriol.
Vote yes, vote no, I don't give a flying ******* either way, but its supremely disrespectful and unprofessional to channel that onto lobbing personal attacks against those who do step forward and work for their fellow pilots.
07-18-2014, 08:27 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Well that doesn't make sense. Of course you didn't choose to be mandatorily displaced anymore than you would choose to be furloughed. I've personally experienced that as well.
But you can always choose where you live as a delta pilot. If don't relish spending negotiating capital to support your voluntary lifestyle choice.
Sometimes I think commuters have an entitlement mindset because they think everyone commutes. Or claim 6000 do. Old topic tho...
But you can always choose where you live as a delta pilot. If don't relish spending negotiating capital to support your voluntary lifestyle choice.
Sometimes I think commuters have an entitlement mindset because they think everyone commutes. Or claim 6000 do. Old topic tho...
No, I think a huge number of pilots were hired when we had a whole bunch of smaller bases in places that were 'nicer' to live, than the ATL. Places (and bases) like DFW, ORD, MSY, IAH, MIA, BOS, PDX, etc.
If, in my interview, they had told me, "You MUST live in ATL area or commute for the rest of your career..." I would have gotten up and walked out, and taken that job with American, where I would still be flying out of MIA in the winter, and BOS in the summer, and I'd still have a RETIREMENT plan.
Delta has Fked over the Delta pilots hired in 1978-1991 more than any other group. Maybe you just haven't been around long enough to see how good it was, before Ron Allen took it into the toilet in 1993.
Nobody WANTS to commute, but given the choice of living in ATL, vs. commuting from a much nicer place, well, I'll commute. Problem was, I was PROMISED I wouldn't have to live in ATL. The fact is, commuters save the company a lot of money. How? We show up in LAX when we are based in ATL, on time, no hotel, no perdiem.
Oh, I was also promised I'd have a retirement plan. So, I got that going for me.
07-18-2014, 09:27 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Not quite right....
DAL 2015 A330 12 yr CA: $255.28 (DAL PWA p.3-9)
UAL 2015 A330 12 yr CA: $262.38 (UPA p.29)
AAL 2015 A330 12 yr CA: $221.63* (AMR-APA Agreement p.3-7)
AAL 2016 A330 12 yr CA: $226.06* (AMR-APA Agreement p.3-8)
*AMR-APA Agreement Supplement A (an LOA) specifies that AA will negotiate an "Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment" to take effect as of Jan. 1 2016. It's a weighted average of UAL and DAL rates.
As of Jan. 1, 2017 (21 months into DAL negotiations) the AA 330 pay rate will be approximately: $266.82
AA has no PS, in 2017 the effective DAL A330 rate with a 10% PS payout will be $280.81. That is still $14.00 more than AA.
Got to go straight pay to straight pay. Can't add profit sharing into the equation.
Fact is, they beat us straight up, which is a good thing. Time to step it up and raise the bar. Industry is watching and our turn to produce
All numbers directly from the USAirways merger transition agreement. So, as you can see, they have already raised the bar.
Side note. Those that say we don't have leverage. You are not correct. We need unity. Once we have unity we have all the leverage we need.
Don't think so? Just wander over to the Cargo forum and read about the drafts happening now and the resulting service failures at FedEx.
Here is the truth.
Read below to see how they eventually top Delta by $40 per hour in the 767-400, a330 etc.
THE USAIRWAYS MERGER TRANSITION AGREEMENT
Effective on the the date of P.O.R. Which is 12/9/13.
First, some work rules.
This agreement provides for a 1:2 for sit times in excess of two hours.
Distance learning: 50% of hourly rate.
Training: 4:00 per day. (Delta 3:45)
Defined contribution: Currently 14%
January 2014: 16%
Delta: 15%
Sick:
5 hours accrued per month
60 short term banked
940 long terms bank
1000 total and with rollover.
Allowed to sell back.
Rapid re-accrual of 7.5 hrs if out more than 30 days
United has 7hrs
Delta no rapid re-accrual, no rollover, no sell back and capped at 270 max.
Home basing in cities that support it.
COMPENSATION: All 12 year rates. 777 rates reflect group 4 which include 777, 767-4, 787, 340.
On POR, the first raise came.
A320 capt. 167.68. F/O 114.02
B777 capt. 213.02. F/O 144.00
January 2014. 8% increase.
A320 capt. 181.00. F/O 123.14
B777 capt. 230.06. F/O 156.44
January 2015. 3% increase.
A320 capt. 186.53. F/O 236.06
B777 capt. 236.00. F/O 161.00
January 2016. 16.5% increase.
A320 capt. 217.24. F/O 147.72
B777 capt. 275.98. F/O 187.67
If needed, on January 2017 a 3.5% increase. On January 2018, a 3.5% increase.
Why if needed you might ask? Here is the rest of the story.
From the MTA:
"MTA provides parity review that compares DAL and UAL as of January 1, 2016. The parity review will use the average of the DAL and UAL pay rates of the A320 and the 737-800 aircraft weighted for the ASM's flown by each airline."
The other groups will be adjusted from there.
Now, when the APA (USAPA will be offered a seat at the table along with the west pilots) negotiates their JCBA, these numbers can change. Likely up, not expecting down.
Other considerations. AMR pilots getting near $100k each from their portion of the company on exit/merger. Frozen DB plans.
Overall, the APA did well. If we are still in section six in 2017-18, they top us by $40 per on the 330/767-4.
That was a pretty nice bar they set.
Personally, I'd never complain about the 4 hour penalty lap in Atlanta if we had their 1:2 after a two hour sit.
The extra cabbage they get in the 401k be nice too.
Last edited by TheManager; 07-18-2014 at 09:58 PM.
07-19-2014, 12:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DAL Pilot
Posts: 1,133
Well that doesn't make sense. Of course you didn't choose to be mandatorily displaced anymore than you would choose to be furloughed. I've personally experienced that as well.
But you can always choose where you live as a delta pilot. If don't relish spending negotiating capital to support your voluntary lifestyle choice.
Sometimes I think commuters have an entitlement mindset because they think everyone commutes. Or claim 6000 do. Old topic tho...
But you can always choose where you live as a delta pilot. If don't relish spending negotiating capital to support your voluntary lifestyle choice.
Sometimes I think commuters have an entitlement mindset because they think everyone commutes. Or claim 6000 do. Old topic tho...
07-19-2014, 05:54 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
I'm glad they did relatively well. It's a shame it will take them a couple of more years to catch-up to us. It was nice that last November the APA Vice President acknowledged the fact that C2012 raised the bar and that they and United were able to piggy-back off that agreement.
"A new contract at Delta triggered an agreement-in-principal for the pilots at United, which helped improve the market comparisons being used at our negotiating table. In short, the bar was raised"
"A new contract at Delta triggered an agreement-in-principal for the pilots at United, which helped improve the market comparisons being used at our negotiating table. In short, the bar was raised"
07-19-2014, 06:09 AM
ready for mo money
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: Left Behind
Posts: 84
If you want to be intellectually honest you'll also mention everything that was given up by the pilot group before bankruptcy and during bankruptcy, as well as the work rules that were sacrificed and will never be regained. If you want to present a honest and complete picture that is. Or just mention a rule that was good that is now gone for each positive one you mention. Just listing one-sided points is disingenuous for the argument you're making.
my qol was much better 13 years ago
treading water and no rescue boat in sight, the alpo crowd is at the dock not helping to save us
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