Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-05-2014, 12:30 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
07-05-2014, 12:35 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Ah, the check airman in you comes out even here. Thanks boss. What can I say. Auto correct.
And that is the "check airman" coming out in me. It wasn't lost on me at all. Your figure worked well under one cent. Your .5% would net 4.2 cents per year. I get it you are happy with just a cost of living increase. At your point in your career, as you prepare to depart the pattern, that is understandable.
So about the screen name. Years ago, when I first was introduced to this web site, there was a plethora of folks on here actively trying to manage our expectations downward. Company talking points and union rhetoric were indistinguishable. I decided that the spades need to be identified and labeled.
Thus, the screen name. I am attempting to manage expectations that are being effectively steered in the the corporations balance back to where reality exists. I am just an infrequent visitor that puts in posts for consideration when warranted. It is because of folks like myself that are seek a fair balance of information that the DALPA board was closed.
Stop and think about that for a minute.
And that is the "check airman" coming out in me. It wasn't lost on me at all. Your figure worked well under one cent. Your .5% would net 4.2 cents per year. I get it you are happy with just a cost of living increase. At your point in your career, as you prepare to depart the pattern, that is understandable.
So about the screen name. Years ago, when I first was introduced to this web site, there was a plethora of folks on here actively trying to manage our expectations downward. Company talking points and union rhetoric were indistinguishable. I decided that the spades need to be identified and labeled.
Thus, the screen name. I am attempting to manage expectations that are being effectively steered in the the corporations balance back to where reality exists. I am just an infrequent visitor that puts in posts for consideration when warranted. It is because of folks like myself that are seek a fair balance of information that the DALPA board was closed.
Stop and think about that for a minute.
I want more money in my bank accounts, sooner rather than later. I do not like the way Barry Bonds played baseball. I did like the way Pete Rose did, even though I am a Cards fan and I hated the Reds when he was there. I'll take a bunch of singles all day long over a bunch of strikeouts and an occasional homerun. Your mileage is different. PD, doesn't give a damn if we get a raise before I retire in another 12 years as long as when we do it meets his definition of "restoration". I also believe there are a whole bunch of really smart rich guys that subscribe to the fact that TVM and compounding is miraculous. I'll take Warren Buffet's advice over PD's and a $1000 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
07-05-2014, 12:38 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 248
I don't believe that there is a "correct" way to measure Pilot productivity. There are many different ways - some better than others, but many are valid.
Management wants us to believe that "Block hours flown" is the Holy Grail of measuring Pilot productivity. Why? Because it is advantageous to them to use this as the defining metric.
George brought up ASM's produced. I mentioned revenue produced per Pilot - which by the way has DAL Pilots more productive than Southwest Pilots.
DALPA would be foolish to allow management to go unchallenged in defining the Metrics that define our productivity.
The company brags about their astute managerial skill in putting "the right equipment on the right route to maximize revenue," and they do a good job at this. However the complex and varied fleet that allows them to maximize revenue also requires more Pilot training and more reserves. In other words, lowers our ability to maximize block hours flown.
We would be fools to allow them to brag about their ability to maximize revenue on one hand ( and reward themselves greatly for it) and then turn around and on the other hand belittle our productivity. The very producitivity that gives them the ability to maximize revenues.
Who cares about block hours? Last time I checked profit is basically determined by revenue minus costs. I don't see block hours in this equation.
Bottom Line - Block hours are definitely a factor in Pilot productivity but so is ASM's and revenue produced. If DALPA allows managemnt to successfully define the metric as block hours than we are relenting to working more in each successive contract.
If as some say, block hours are the historical norm for measuring Pilot Productivity than DALPA should start challenging this notion ASAP.
Scoop
Management wants us to believe that "Block hours flown" is the Holy Grail of measuring Pilot productivity. Why? Because it is advantageous to them to use this as the defining metric.
George brought up ASM's produced. I mentioned revenue produced per Pilot - which by the way has DAL Pilots more productive than Southwest Pilots.
DALPA would be foolish to allow management to go unchallenged in defining the Metrics that define our productivity.
The company brags about their astute managerial skill in putting "the right equipment on the right route to maximize revenue," and they do a good job at this. However the complex and varied fleet that allows them to maximize revenue also requires more Pilot training and more reserves. In other words, lowers our ability to maximize block hours flown.
We would be fools to allow them to brag about their ability to maximize revenue on one hand ( and reward themselves greatly for it) and then turn around and on the other hand belittle our productivity. The very producitivity that gives them the ability to maximize revenues.
Who cares about block hours? Last time I checked profit is basically determined by revenue minus costs. I don't see block hours in this equation.
Bottom Line - Block hours are definitely a factor in Pilot productivity but so is ASM's and revenue produced. If DALPA allows managemnt to successfully define the metric as block hours than we are relenting to working more in each successive contract.
If as some say, block hours are the historical norm for measuring Pilot Productivity than DALPA should start challenging this notion ASAP.
Scoop
I agree with you to a point Scoop, Alpa should define the metric we are going to use, and I think they should probably all be taken together with some weighting. ASMs are going to be the least effective measure from our standpoint, because they can vary based upon the gauge of the aircraft. Block hours won't reflect training and reserves for how many fleets we have, so this measure has weaknesses as well. Revenue produced is excellent for compensation, but not for staffing.
How about block hours flown divided by pilots who actually flew over the course of the year? (-training, sick, mil leave, etc)
Taken another way, what if we replaced 16 747s with 25 777? Would the ASM reflect the change in pilots required? What if they flex down 737 flying and flex up 320 flying? Change in ASMs, same amount of pilot input. What about taking 10 seats out of 747? Same pilots, different ASMs. What about the 319's in the executive configuration? I missed George's arguments about this, and maybe he can convince me. But ask the SWA guys about ASMs and required pilots. (And thereby seat progression) I can see revenue produced for compensation, and not as much as block hours flown.
I specifically was responding to Carl's cherry picking of ASMs to reply to the previous posts regarding staffing. He is picking data points that he thinks is going to embarrass slowplay, alpha, sailing. I don't know which one of those guys stole his cookies, but he is ****ed and willing to go to any length to poke his finger in their eye, take things out of context, bully, chest thump and even lie.
Lies, damn lies and statistics
One more thing. To get around the NW pilots scope clause, NWA ordered 44 seat RJs. They were 50 seat jets with 6 seats removed and some closets installed. The FAA said, "different type!" This triggered negotiations for the Pinnacle pilots, and the company wanted a 12% pay cut for the pilots to fly those planes because they produced 12% fewer seats per flight, with the corresponding reduction of ASMs. Doh!
07-05-2014, 12:40 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
And that is the "check airman" coming out in me. It wasn't lost on me at all. Your figure worked well under one cent. Your .5% would net 4.2 cents per year. I get it you are happy with just a cost of living increase. At your point in your career, as you prepare to depart the pattern, that is understandable.
Oh, and I think your 4.2 cents/year is a bit off and you might wanna check your math on that... And I am not going anywhere anytime soon.
Last edited by tsquare; 07-05-2014 at 12:43 PM. Reason: spelling
07-05-2014, 12:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 106
Believe it or not, I think we are on the same side of this argument. I am in no way advocating that we work for free, or that we haven't sacrificed, or that those sacrifices shouldn't be recognized. My contention is how to best get those sacrifices back. And in some respects, I am a FUPM kind of guy too. We already got scope back. Well, all at the bottom that is willing to fight for anyway... (standing by for incoming on that)
But in the court of public opinion, which would you say has a greater impact on Joe 6 pack: A 747 captain that makes $450/hour and makes $300k/year, or a 747 captain that makes $300/hour and makes $300k? or is there no difference? It is somewhat rhetorical, but it is an interesting question as to what you believe their perception is of us.
But in the court of public opinion, which would you say has a greater impact on Joe 6 pack: A 747 captain that makes $450/hour and makes $300k/year, or a 747 captain that makes $300/hour and makes $300k? or is there no difference? It is somewhat rhetorical, but it is an interesting question as to what you believe their perception is of us.
Having said that, I couldn't care less what Joe thinks of me. As long as Joe keeps buying tickets I'm fine with the idea that he thinks I'm overpaid and underworked. If it's such a scam then Joe can put in an App...we're hiring.
I walked circles for 2 weeks at NWA so I'm intimately familiar with what Joe thinks of me. Not to mention what his/my non-aviation friends/family/neighbors think about it too. (BTW, that's not some poke about NWA or anything....I have heard MANY stories from Southies about the same kind of things during your negotiations).
Fortunately, what we make is between us and the company every ___ # of years and what Joe thinks should not even be a hint of concern to anyone involved. BTW, that's true even if Joe works on Wall Street.
The much bigger concern I think is how to convince the other side that we are worth so much more than the going rate at our fellow legacies...who I can't thank very much for their recent accomplishments.
07-05-2014, 12:47 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
T:
PMFJI:
Please explain how a 717 captain can kill 300 pax in one day when his aircraft holds only ~100 pax vs a 777 captain. IMMHO:
--If you kill them on the first flight, chances are you're dead too, missing 200 other pax. Also, if you live, you won't get a shot at the other 200---> You'll be in a hospital or doing A LOT of paperwork.
--If you kill them on the last flight, you missed 200 pax on the first two flights.
Thanks in advance,
DFW
PMFJI:
Please explain how a 717 captain can kill 300 pax in one day when his aircraft holds only ~100 pax vs a 777 captain. IMMHO:
--If you kill them on the first flight, chances are you're dead too, missing 200 other pax. Also, if you live, you won't get a shot at the other 200---> You'll be in a hospital or doing A LOT of paperwork.
--If you kill them on the last flight, you missed 200 pax on the first two flights.
Thanks in advance,
DFW
I can do this all day.
07-05-2014, 12:47 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
I enjoy the debate. Nothing more. Everything I offer is my opinion, nothing more. I am not trying to "manage" anyone's expectations. The fact that you believe that that is my intent is not only flat out wrong, it is insulting. If you want to believe that my position as an LCP is in anyway a management position, then you and I have nothing to say to each other.
I want more money in my bank accounts, sooner rather than later. I do not like the way Barry Bonds played baseball. I did like the way Pete Rose did, even though I am a Cards fan and I hated the Reds when he was there. I'll take a bunch of singles all day long over a bunch of strikeouts and an occasional homerun. Your mileage is different. PD, doesn't give a damn if we get a raise before I retire in another 12 years as long as when we do it meets his definition of "restoration". I also believe there are a whole bunch of really smart rich guys that subscribe to the fact that TVM and compounding is miraculous. I'll take Warren Buffet's advice over PD's and a $1000 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I want more money in my bank accounts, sooner rather than later. I do not like the way Barry Bonds played baseball. I did like the way Pete Rose did, even though I am a Cards fan and I hated the Reds when he was there. I'll take a bunch of singles all day long over a bunch of strikeouts and an occasional homerun. Your mileage is different. PD, doesn't give a damn if we get a raise before I retire in another 12 years as long as when we do it meets his definition of "restoration". I also believe there are a whole bunch of really smart rich guys that subscribe to the fact that TVM and compounding is miraculous. I'll take Warren Buffet's advice over PD's and a $1000 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Your views are enlightening and welcome as always. I personally believed that as you are closer to retirement, that your priorities are different than others. I thought you were closer than 12 years.
That aside, I understand the game of getting on base and OB%. What happens though if we go into section 6 looking for a 3 year deal or so with another 4833, and the massive revenue machine that Delta now is drags their feet for 3-4 years. Will a deal like that still be considered a win in your estimation?
07-05-2014, 12:49 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 248
One more thing, I think the pilots who produce the most revenue should be the best compensated. And I am open to all ideas as to how to become the best compensated. And pay the least in taxes. Lots of good ideas so far.
07-05-2014, 12:49 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Absolutely agree. I think it would be much much easier to hide those gains.. like bag fees.
07-05-2014, 12:57 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Stop right there and understand one thing. I am not insinuating that you are using your position as a LCA to carry managements message.
Your views are enlightening and welcome as always. I personally believed that as you are closer to retirement, that your priorities are different than others. I thought you were closer than 12 years.
That aside, I understand the game of getting on base and OB%. What happens though if we go into section 6 looking for a 3 year deal or so with another 4833, and the massive revenue machine that Delta now is drags their feet for 3-4 years. Will a deal like that still be considered a win in your estimation?
Your views are enlightening and welcome as always. I personally believed that as you are closer to retirement, that your priorities are different than others. I thought you were closer than 12 years.
That aside, I understand the game of getting on base and OB%. What happens though if we go into section 6 looking for a 3 year deal or so with another 4833, and the massive revenue machine that Delta now is drags their feet for 3-4 years. Will a deal like that still be considered a win in your estimation?
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