Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-04-2014, 09:04 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Remember, the IRS is going to take 35% of any pay raise. I'm all for mo'money, but I want to KEEP more of what I make too! Fill up my 401K ASAP, free medical, zero deductible, 6hrs./day vacation, training, daily guarantee, etc. would help put more in our pockets and keep some of it from our Uncle Sam.
Or how about we go all Emirates; buy my house, pay my kids college tuition, drive me to work and make the first $85K tax free!
Or how about we go all Emirates; buy my house, pay my kids college tuition, drive me to work and make the first $85K tax free!
Per Diem is about 1.4 as valuable as pay.
07-05-2014, 12:14 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Not saying they shouldn't, I just think shooting for C2K+20% is a losing strategy. I'll take CPI +.05% each year, and increase the ADG by :15 minutes every year.... (for starters) Minimum pay rate increase, but better daily value. Mr Manager doesn't care what Wall Street thinks. I do, and I guarantee you that the 850,000,000 outstanding shares of DAL so too, and they drive the bus.
You are a reasonably intelligent guy so I am guessing you have a reasonably intelligent answer.
Why do you, Mr. Square, care what Wall Street thinks?
Why on earth do you think that the 850M share holders care, and while you're at it answering that one, how are they exactly driving the bus?
Richard drives the bus. Richard alone decides as he is of course the Chief Executive Officer. The 850M stock holders are opportunistic investors. They are motivated by the same virtue that drives Wall Street, greed.
So what is up with Wall Street and the investors greed. Let's drill down into this virtue and examine its role in relation to us. Greed is now normal in our ever increasingly “money-centric” society, one in which money is at the center of virtually all thoughts, decisions and activities.
Delta stock until recently has been one of the highest rated IBD stocks of the past two years. The performance quite astounding. Many investors have flocked in to buy it with the hope of receiving out sized gains. Many have.
On September 6, 2013, Wall Street was ultimately positioned to make their big gain when Delta was selected to replace BMC Software on the S and P 500. Delta lost the S and P status they had enjoyed before on the eve of their bankruptcy.
At the time the world’s second-largest carrier, after reducing debt and restarting dividend payments in its comeback from bankruptcy was able to qualify to be listed again which occurred September 10, 2013.
Many people saw their wealth explode that day. Particularly anyone in management that held stock options. Stock holders on record saw a gain of 5.5% that day and the stock has continued on a climb that has seen it double in less than a year.
Ask yourself this T. Back to that reduced debt and restarting of the dividend payments that helped usher in acceptance back onto the S and P. What was some of the largest debt that Delta was able to reduce? Hint, the word starts with a P.
Ask yourself this next question. Is it expectable for you that Delta pay a dividend prior to compensating the Square family fairly for the sacrifices you made to see the company to the exit of bankruptcy?
Now after honestly asking yourself those questions, tell us again why you care what Wall Street and the outstanding investors think about an increase to your hourly compensation?
I believe in your view, you feel that Delta, and thus the pilots and other employees, will be punished financially if we negotiate and except higher hourly compensation. A compensation level that would return us to a level that repays our bankruptcy investment that fueled the current success of this company.
Well, remember this about greed. Greed is acceptable not just for Republicans. In 2010, when asked about Goldman Sachs C.E.O. Lloyd Blankfein’s $9 million bonus and JPMorgan Chase C.E.O. Jamie Dimon’s $17 million bonus, President Obama responded: “First of all, I know both those guys. They’re very savvy businessmen. And I, like most of the American people, don’t begrudge people success or wealth.”
I would certainly think that most American people won't begrudge us for seeking a return on our generous investment to save Delta Air Lines as well. And I am positive that if we are successfully, 850M share holders aren't going to wake up, read the headlines and log on to put in their sell orders.
Wall Street might have a few words about it, but again it all boils down to greed because if we are successful, that is less $ that they and senior management will see. On one hand it will be marginal to them, but on the other it will be significant to those of us here. Life changing for some.
07-05-2014, 12:38 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Next.
.05%? Where do you conjure this stuff up from. 5 hundredths of a percent more than CPI? That's like a few mere pennies.
07-05-2014, 03:27 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Not saying they shouldn't, I just think shooting for C2K+20% is a losing strategy. I'll take CPI +.05% each year, and increase the ADG by :15 minutes every year.... (for starters) Minimum pay rate increase, but better daily value. Mr Manager doesn't care what Wall Street thinks. I do, and I guarantee you that the 850,000,000 outstanding shares of DAL so too, and they drive the bus.
Just a few months ago, you were very adamant that c15 better pay you a lot more money. In your words, at the time, it was pay rate centric.
I'm not trying to nail you down on your position because everyone is allowed to change their mind. However, what Wall Street thinks is pretty far from my concern.
07-05-2014, 03:51 AM
Bye Bye Maddog!
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Movin' On UP........
Posts: 560
07-05-2014, 05:56 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
T, I'll ask again.
You are a reasonably intelligent guy so I am guessing you have a reasonably intelligent answer.
Why do you, Mr. Square, care what Wall Street thinks?
Why on earth do you think that the 850M share holders care, and while you're at it answering that one, how are they exactly driving the bus?
Richard drives the bus. Richard alone decides as he is of course the Chief Executive Officer. The 850M stock holders are opportunistic investors. They are motivated by the same virtue that drives Wall Street, greed.
So what is up with Wall Street and the investors greed. Let's drill down into this virtue and examine its role in relation to us. Greed is now normal in our ever increasingly “money-centric” society, one in which money is at the center of virtually all thoughts, decisions and activities.
Delta stock until recently has been one of the highest rated IBD stocks of the past two years. The performance quite astounding. Many investors have flocked in to buy it with the hope of receiving out sized gains. Many have.
On September 6, 2013, Wall Street was ultimately positioned to make their big gain when Delta was selected to replace BMC Software on the S and P 500. Delta lost the S and P status they had enjoyed before on the eve of their bankruptcy.
At the time the world’s second-largest carrier, after reducing debt and restarting dividend payments in its comeback from bankruptcy was able to qualify to be listed again which occurred September 10, 2013.
Many people saw their wealth explode that day. Particularly anyone in management that held stock options. Stock holders on record saw a gain of 5.5% that day and the stock has continued on a climb that has seen it double in less than a year.
Ask yourself this T. Back to that reduced debt and restarting of the dividend payments that helped usher in acceptance back onto the S and P. What was some of the largest debt that Delta was able to reduce? Hint, the word starts with a P.
Ask yourself this next question. Is it expectable for you that Delta pay a dividend prior to compensating the Square family fairly for the sacrifices you made to see the company to the exit of bankruptcy?
Now after honestly asking yourself those questions, tell us again why you care what Wall Street and the outstanding investors think about an increase to your hourly compensation?
I believe in your view, you feel that Delta, and thus the pilots and other employees, will be punished financially if we negotiate and except higher hourly compensation. A compensation level that would return us to a level that repays our bankruptcy investment that fueled the current success of this company.
Well, remember this about greed. Greed is acceptable not just for Republicans. In 2010, when asked about Goldman Sachs C.E.O. Lloyd Blankfein’s $9 million bonus and JPMorgan Chase C.E.O. Jamie Dimon’s $17 million bonus, President Obama responded: “First of all, I know both those guys. They’re very savvy businessmen. And I, like most of the American people, don’t begrudge people success or wealth.”
I would certainly think that most American people won't begrudge us for seeking a return on our generous investment to save Delta Air Lines as well. And I am positive that if we are successfully, 850M share holders aren't going to wake up, read the headlines and log on to put in their sell orders.
Wall Street might have a few words about it, but again it all boils down to greed because if we are successful, that is less $ that they and senior management will see. On one hand it will be marginal to them, but on the other it will be significant to those of us here. Life changing for some.
You are a reasonably intelligent guy so I am guessing you have a reasonably intelligent answer.
Why do you, Mr. Square, care what Wall Street thinks?
Why on earth do you think that the 850M share holders care, and while you're at it answering that one, how are they exactly driving the bus?
Richard drives the bus. Richard alone decides as he is of course the Chief Executive Officer. The 850M stock holders are opportunistic investors. They are motivated by the same virtue that drives Wall Street, greed.
So what is up with Wall Street and the investors greed. Let's drill down into this virtue and examine its role in relation to us. Greed is now normal in our ever increasingly “money-centric” society, one in which money is at the center of virtually all thoughts, decisions and activities.
Delta stock until recently has been one of the highest rated IBD stocks of the past two years. The performance quite astounding. Many investors have flocked in to buy it with the hope of receiving out sized gains. Many have.
On September 6, 2013, Wall Street was ultimately positioned to make their big gain when Delta was selected to replace BMC Software on the S and P 500. Delta lost the S and P status they had enjoyed before on the eve of their bankruptcy.
At the time the world’s second-largest carrier, after reducing debt and restarting dividend payments in its comeback from bankruptcy was able to qualify to be listed again which occurred September 10, 2013.
Many people saw their wealth explode that day. Particularly anyone in management that held stock options. Stock holders on record saw a gain of 5.5% that day and the stock has continued on a climb that has seen it double in less than a year.
Ask yourself this T. Back to that reduced debt and restarting of the dividend payments that helped usher in acceptance back onto the S and P. What was some of the largest debt that Delta was able to reduce? Hint, the word starts with a P.
Ask yourself this next question. Is it expectable for you that Delta pay a dividend prior to compensating the Square family fairly for the sacrifices you made to see the company to the exit of bankruptcy?
Now after honestly asking yourself those questions, tell us again why you care what Wall Street and the outstanding investors think about an increase to your hourly compensation?
I believe in your view, you feel that Delta, and thus the pilots and other employees, will be punished financially if we negotiate and except higher hourly compensation. A compensation level that would return us to a level that repays our bankruptcy investment that fueled the current success of this company.
Well, remember this about greed. Greed is acceptable not just for Republicans. In 2010, when asked about Goldman Sachs C.E.O. Lloyd Blankfein’s $9 million bonus and JPMorgan Chase C.E.O. Jamie Dimon’s $17 million bonus, President Obama responded: “First of all, I know both those guys. They’re very savvy businessmen. And I, like most of the American people, don’t begrudge people success or wealth.”
I would certainly think that most American people won't begrudge us for seeking a return on our generous investment to save Delta Air Lines as well. And I am positive that if we are successfully, 850M share holders aren't going to wake up, read the headlines and log on to put in their sell orders.
Wall Street might have a few words about it, but again it all boils down to greed because if we are successful, that is less $ that they and senior management will see. On one hand it will be marginal to them, but on the other it will be significant to those of us here. Life changing for some.
Excellent points. What blows my mind is that DALPA has NEVER produced an accounting of how much MONEY the Delta Pilots have contributed to Delta's success!
Back when we were voting on LOA's 46 (32.5%pay cut) and 51 (15% more pay cut) many of us were screaming for a "SNAPBACK CLAUSE!" to be included in any such pay cuts.
The thought being, if Delta -really- needed those cuts to survive (42% cumulative), fine, we will save Delta as most of us are tied to Delta 'for life', but when it turns around, and we all knew it would, then we expect to be made whole!
Dalpa argued against snap backs! They said things like, "No way we could ever get DIP financing to exit BK with a snap back clause..."
So here we are, 10 years later come this Sept. Delta has recovered (imagine that) so...
Where's the Pilot's return on investment?
When does that bill come due?
Dalpa won't even put a number on it. Was nobody at Dalpa keeping score?
For 10 years we've been 'investing' in Delta, and we have yet to see a return to our pre-LOA 46 pay/benefits. Remember, the only way they got a Yes vote for that first 32.5% bite of the apple was to promise that would KEEP DELTA OUT OF BANKRUPTCY!!
How'd that work out?
Oh, and remember that Bankruptcy Protection Letter, saying they would protect our DB plan if they did file...?
Yeah, how'd that work out?
I'm tired of the lies and the BS. The company is making big money today. A lot of that is directly traceable to OUR investment in Delta.
So when we gettin' paid?
I think if Dalpa did a good job of showing Wall Street the billions that the pilots have been investing for the past 10 years, in the same press release where we demand full restoration, the Bankers wouldn't cry about it for more than a day or two.
07-05-2014, 05:58 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
So here is some hard math, I will get a few kicks watching you squirm out of what you have proclaimed so loudly.
Let's look at pay first. The compounded increase in pay was 19.7%. Other pay items (MD-88, per diem, international pay, etc.) added another .8%. Increased DC another 1% that sums to 21.5% Profit sharing decrease equaled 2% loss so the net on pay is 19.5%
Let's assume that you start with an average pilot cost of $160,000 per pilot (that's low but close enough) with 11,000 pilots. Net cost is $1.76 billion.
Now, increase the average by 19.5% and the average cost goes up to $191,200 per head. In order to be "cost neutral" or no net cost as you claim, you would have to reduce the pilot count to 9,205 ($1.76 billion divided by $191,200) pilots or a loss of 1,795 pilots. That is how much the "massive" productivity gains would force you to lose.
Below is a graph that shows the trailing twelve month average of pilots required. You use pilots required rather than actual head count, because pilots required is the number required by the contract and that is how you measure the impact of work rule changes. You use a trailing twelve month average to smooth out the vagaries of seasonal flying changes. That graph does not seem to show a loss of 1,795 jobs even before the 717's arrived. Explain
Let's look at pay first. The compounded increase in pay was 19.7%. Other pay items (MD-88, per diem, international pay, etc.) added another .8%. Increased DC another 1% that sums to 21.5% Profit sharing decrease equaled 2% loss so the net on pay is 19.5%
Let's assume that you start with an average pilot cost of $160,000 per pilot (that's low but close enough) with 11,000 pilots. Net cost is $1.76 billion.
Now, increase the average by 19.5% and the average cost goes up to $191,200 per head. In order to be "cost neutral" or no net cost as you claim, you would have to reduce the pilot count to 9,205 ($1.76 billion divided by $191,200) pilots or a loss of 1,795 pilots. That is how much the "massive" productivity gains would force you to lose.
Below is a graph that shows the trailing twelve month average of pilots required. You use pilots required rather than actual head count, because pilots required is the number required by the contract and that is how you measure the impact of work rule changes. You use a trailing twelve month average to smooth out the vagaries of seasonal flying changes. That graph does not seem to show a loss of 1,795 jobs even before the 717's arrived. Explain
Let's start with your graph of "pilots required":
From Jan 2013 to Dec 2013 we went from 9,650 "pilots required" to 9,720 "pilots required". A gain of 0.7%. From Jan 2013 to Dec 2013 our airline grew Available Seat Miles (ASM's) from 230,415 million to 232,740 million (Source: Statista). A gain of 1%. If our "required pilots" had kept up with the growth of the airline, our Dec 2013 "pilots required" number should have been 9,746...but we were 26 pilots short. This partly reflects our productivity concessions in C2012 which requires less pilots.
From Jan 2014 to March 2014 we went from 9,780 "pilots required" to 9,900 "pilots required". A gain of 1.2%. From Jan 2014 to Mar 2014 our airline grew ASM's at 3% (Source: 1Q2014 10Q). If our "required pilots" had kept up with the growth of the airline, our Mar 2014 "pilots required" should have been 10,073...but we were 173 pilots short. This shows the accelerating value of our productivity concessions requiring a greater rate of less pilots as the airline grew.
Keep in mind that in the above, we grew the airline by adding ASM's in smaller aircraft while removing them in larger aircraft. This should have required even more pilots, but again our productivity concessions helps this to not happen.
Alfa, your entire premise ignores the growth of the airline in the stated time period. I'm sure it was just accidental. There's a more interesting point to make next, but I'll do so in response to a post from sailingfun.
Carl
07-05-2014, 06:05 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I posted for Carl the total pilot cost numbers for 2012 and 13. They almost exactly match the numbers both DALPA and the company agreed on when costing the contract out. I guess Carl is saying the company and DALPA were in collusion to provide fake numbers and then got RA to cook the books to reflect those fake numbers and sign his name to it under penalty of law. I mean sure, that's what happened!
Old post
Delta pilot costs
2011-1,607,000,000
2012-1,678,000,000
2013-1,917,000,000
Source form 4 data
Total improvement since contract signed 310 million
Costed contract improvements by company and DALPA approx. 400 million.Year 14 and 15 raises just over 7 percent adding additional 70 to 80 million in end game numbers. Very close to costed numbers.
Note: not sure the exact number for each percent of raise. Thought it was 12 million but emailed by several people it's now about 16 million. That will put the end game cost of the contract over 420 million.
Old post
Delta pilot costs
2011-1,607,000,000
2012-1,678,000,000
2013-1,917,000,000
Source form 4 data
Total improvement since contract signed 310 million
Costed contract improvements by company and DALPA approx. 400 million.Year 14 and 15 raises just over 7 percent adding additional 70 to 80 million in end game numbers. Very close to costed numbers.
Note: not sure the exact number for each percent of raise. Thought it was 12 million but emailed by several people it's now about 16 million. That will put the end game cost of the contract over 420 million.
Sailingfun,
I think I finally see the disconnect here and it has to do with an example I gave earlier of guys who only want to talk about their gains in the stock market and never their losses. But to be accurate, gains have to be summed against losses to come up with an actual net gain/loss. I'm sure you'll agree.
Here's where you're going wrong from your numbers posted above: You didn't title it properly. The title of this row is actually: "Pilot wages/salary expense"...and although your figure of $1,678,000,000 is correct for 2012, the correct figure for 2013 is: $1,864,000,000 (source: airlinefinancials.com). But here's the real key: You using these numbers as proof that C2012 was a net gain of value to pilots is like the guy who only wants to talk about his stock market gains and not the losses. Nowhere in these numbers are the costs associated with profit share loss, ALV gain for reserves, extra on call day for reserves, sick leave policy, loss of summer month days, etc. These are all tangible C2012 losses that were costed out...yet those losses don't show up in your numbers above.
As I'm now saying for the third time, if you want to answer the question of whether C2012 was a net gain of value or a net loss of value to pilots, the costed value of our concessions have to be subtracted from the wage/salary/pay gains. I've asked alfaromeo or slowplay or any of the guys who were in the MEC administration at the time to show the line item costing that was accepted by both sides during negotiations. Then we can all add up the gains, subtract the losses and see if C2012 was a net gain or loss of value to pilots. Those documents exist. Like the question we had during the 117 debacle, it was answered by somebody (I think shiznit) by taking a picture of the actual document and posting it here.
Until then, I have to go with the evidence. The evidence is in management's multiple descriptions of C2012 as being "cost neutral" and going further to say that "the savings inherent in C2012 will further allow us to fund initiatives that will benefit other employee groups." These statements followed by management now saying that all employees (except pilots) are back to their pre-bankruptcy wages. I think we now know what the initiative was that management was saying would benefit other employee groups.
Carl
07-05-2014, 06:15 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Excellent points. What blows my mind is that DALPA has NEVER produced an accounting of how much MONEY the Delta Pilots have contributed to Delta's success!
Back when we were voting on LOA's 46 (32.5%pay cut) and 51 (15% more pay cut) many of us were screaming for a "SNAPBACK CLAUSE!" to be included in any such pay cuts.
The thought being, if Delta -really- needed those cuts to survive (42% cumulative), fine, we will save Delta as most of us are tied to Delta 'for life', but when it turns around, and we all knew it would, then we expect to be made whole!
Dalpa argued against snap backs! They said things like, "No way we could ever get DIP financing to exit BK with a snap back clause..."
So here we are, 10 years later come this Sept. Delta has recovered (imagine that) so...
Where's the Pilot's return on investment?
When does that bill come due?
Dalpa won't even put a number on it. Was nobody at Dalpa keeping score?
For 10 years we've been 'investing' in Delta, and we have yet to see a return to our pre-LOA 46 pay/benefits. Remember, the only way they got a Yes vote for that first 32.5% bite of the apple was to promise that would KEEP DELTA OUT OF BANKRUPTCY!!
How'd that work out?
Oh, and remember that Bankruptcy Protection Letter, saying they would protect our DB plan if they did file...?
Yeah, how'd that work out?
I'm tired of the lies and the BS. The company is making big money today. A lot of that is directly traceable to OUR investment in Delta.
So when we gettin' paid?
I think if Dalpa did a good job of showing Wall Street the billions that the pilots have been investing for the past 10 years, in the same press release where we demand full restoration, the Bankers wouldn't cry about it for more than a day or two.
Back when we were voting on LOA's 46 (32.5%pay cut) and 51 (15% more pay cut) many of us were screaming for a "SNAPBACK CLAUSE!" to be included in any such pay cuts.
The thought being, if Delta -really- needed those cuts to survive (42% cumulative), fine, we will save Delta as most of us are tied to Delta 'for life', but when it turns around, and we all knew it would, then we expect to be made whole!
Dalpa argued against snap backs! They said things like, "No way we could ever get DIP financing to exit BK with a snap back clause..."
So here we are, 10 years later come this Sept. Delta has recovered (imagine that) so...
Where's the Pilot's return on investment?
When does that bill come due?
Dalpa won't even put a number on it. Was nobody at Dalpa keeping score?
For 10 years we've been 'investing' in Delta, and we have yet to see a return to our pre-LOA 46 pay/benefits. Remember, the only way they got a Yes vote for that first 32.5% bite of the apple was to promise that would KEEP DELTA OUT OF BANKRUPTCY!!
How'd that work out?
Oh, and remember that Bankruptcy Protection Letter, saying they would protect our DB plan if they did file...?
Yeah, how'd that work out?
I'm tired of the lies and the BS. The company is making big money today. A lot of that is directly traceable to OUR investment in Delta.
So when we gettin' paid?
I think if Dalpa did a good job of showing Wall Street the billions that the pilots have been investing for the past 10 years, in the same press release where we demand full restoration, the Bankers wouldn't cry about it for more than a day or two.
And BTW, this sounds like a mirror image of what occurred with us at ol NWA back then.
Carl
07-05-2014, 06:31 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Many of us stated clearly both here and at the road shows that management would never spend money on re-engining 50 seat pigs that our pax hated. Slowplay and the other MEC administrators were clear in that it was management's Plan B if we voted NO.
It's good the truth finally comes out. It's good to also see why so many of us referred to those road shows as nothing more than a sales/fear campaign.
Maybe this time we'll see a FUD campaign for what it is...because there will definitely be another FUD campaign for C2015.
Carl
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