Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-14-2014, 06:05 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
By the metric some on here want to use the most efficient pilots in the world would only fly A380's. Management on the other hand is concerned about how they stack up against SW with both of us flying a 737 from ATL to DFW.
I do find it interesting that we are claiming on the one hand that we are More efficient because we fly larger aircraft thus generating more revenue and ASM's and then in many posts argue that pilot pay should not be based on aircraft size and revenue generation ability.
I do find it interesting that we are claiming on the one hand that we are More efficient because we fly larger aircraft thus generating more revenue and ASM's and then in many posts argue that pilot pay should not be based on aircraft size and revenue generation ability.
Just do away with the "productivity" argument, and all this goes away. Push throttles... get paid. It doesn't have to be this complicated.
06-14-2014, 06:11 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
I don't know, Timbo. I'm thinking that sitting short call for 23 hours and then reporting for a 16-hour flight was a pretty big problem even with a rest facility? For the domestic guys, having to get PIC concurrence to go beyond 9-14 hours on duty (depending upon the time of day and number of legs) makes a lot of sense, too. Not to mention no layover ever less than 10 hours.
06-14-2014, 06:24 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
It's ok to discuss what our challenges will be in C2015, but this doesn't seem to be one of them, & not sure why you're grasping at straws on why the NMB is gonna park us during record profits, all without offering ideas of how we can make substantial gains.
I believe you when you say you're not management, & I think you were pretty unfairly attacked on the forum over the last day regarding the MoRon incident, but it really is a pretty steady stream of "don't expect much in the next contract" from you. Sheer contrarianism? An Eeyore complex? 
Last edited by JungleBus; 06-14-2014 at 06:39 AM.
06-14-2014, 06:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,576
Ugh! I want a do-over. July schedule sucks balls
Since the new FAR 117 went into effect, I've been hearing a lot of b!tching from both Int. LCA's and senior Int. F/O's, that they can now "Only" fly 100 hrs. in 28 days, vs. 120 hrs. in 30 days.
One guy said, "I just took a 20% pay cut!"
I'd like to compare how many hours the typical DAL line holder flies vs. the rest of the industry. What was it DALPA said our average line holder was flying, 92?
Here's the irony in the new FAR; the 757 Domestic guys I jumpseat with, are flying MORE hours per day (how is that getting more rest?? Ijust saw a 32 block hr. 5 day 757 trip!) and the International guys, who have rest facilities on board, and longer layovers, are now flying LESS!
Once again, the Government fkd it up. They solved a problem that didn't exist (Int. rest/flight time rules) and made the REAL problem (domestic flying and long days) worse!
But on the efficiency thing, DAL pilots will never match SWA efficiency, using the block hours flown metric, the many fleets MANAGEMENT has decided to operate pretty much guarantee that.
PS, some of the July Capt. awards are out, via the back door. I got a 69hr. line! Whoo Hoo!
One guy said, "I just took a 20% pay cut!"
I'd like to compare how many hours the typical DAL line holder flies vs. the rest of the industry. What was it DALPA said our average line holder was flying, 92?
Here's the irony in the new FAR; the 757 Domestic guys I jumpseat with, are flying MORE hours per day (how is that getting more rest?? Ijust saw a 32 block hr. 5 day 757 trip!) and the International guys, who have rest facilities on board, and longer layovers, are now flying LESS!
Once again, the Government fkd it up. They solved a problem that didn't exist (Int. rest/flight time rules) and made the REAL problem (domestic flying and long days) worse!
But on the efficiency thing, DAL pilots will never match SWA efficiency, using the block hours flown metric, the many fleets MANAGEMENT has decided to operate pretty much guarantee that.
PS, some of the July Capt. awards are out, via the back door. I got a 69hr. line! Whoo Hoo!
06-14-2014, 06:37 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: A350
Posts: 629
I believe Sailing's story. It's easy to believe. I know pilots that were threatened privately by DAL management in various ways. I was here when the "plantation mentality" was in full force. A patriarchal management style with a compliant DALPA made it common place to threaten anyone "uppity" enough to complain or seek change.
Many here would remember Charlie S., a controversial figure for sure. It seems to me that his job was threatened about 2x a year. Charlie T is reported to have threatened/fired him for declining to come into the CPO on a day off. A less compliant ALPA headed that one off.
Northwest was a labor lawyers dream. I get that. But in light of DAL's history Sailing's story is 100% believable. And attacking his integrity because you do not like his position is Toolish.
Many here would remember Charlie S., a controversial figure for sure. It seems to me that his job was threatened about 2x a year. Charlie T is reported to have threatened/fired him for declining to come into the CPO on a day off. A less compliant ALPA headed that one off.
Northwest was a labor lawyers dream. I get that. But in light of DAL's history Sailing's story is 100% believable. And attacking his integrity because you do not like his position is Toolish.
06-14-2014, 07:15 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,907
I don't know, Timbo. I'm thinking that sitting short call for 23 hours and then reporting for a 16-hour flight was a pretty big problem even with a rest facility? For the domestic guys, having to get PIC concurrence to go beyond 9-14 hours on duty (depending upon the time of day and number of legs) makes a lot of sense, too. Not to mention no layover ever less than 10 hours.
06-14-2014, 07:47 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
I don't know, Timbo. I'm thinking that sitting short call for 23 hours and then reporting for a 16-hour flight was a pretty big problem even with a rest facility? For the domestic guys, having to get PIC concurrence to go beyond 9-14 hours on duty (depending upon the time of day and number of legs) makes a lot of sense, too. Not to mention no layover ever less than 10 hours.
First off, prior to 117, nobody could sit International short call for 23 hours, then fly 16, or even more than one. Remember Whithlow? You had to be able to look back 24 hours and find 8 hrs. free of duty for rest, short call was not considered "Rest" so as you sat longer, your availability to fly became shorter.
I do like that they eliminated -any- 24hr. short calls though, that was just stupid.
Second, the "Problem" they were trying to fix, was a Domestic flying (mostly RJ) problem, r.e. the Buffalo crash.
They "fixed it" by allowing 2 pilots to fly 9 hours, instead of 8.
Brilliant.
I do like that they made the minimum layover 10 hours though, if I were King, that would have been an FAR about 40 years ago, along with a max number of legs flown per day, and my number would have been 5 legs, not 6, shortened by back side of the clock flying. And yes, when I was flying both the MD88 and the 75/767 domestic, there were a few trips where, due to wx, we got in very late for our 9hr. layover. I called crew scheds and told them we would NOT be making our 0600 pushback, due to fatigue. I never got any blowback about it from the CPO.
But what about the CDO bullet we just dodged?
That's still legal??
YGTBSM.
About the whole CEO intimidation thing, yes, I fully believe SF, that was Mo'Ron's way of dealing with...everyone. If you spoke out, on the DALPA forum or via letters, he would "Call you in" to talk about it, hoping to intimidate you, and everyone you talked to afterwards.
I remember the two Charlies too, Tutt and Sargent. Someone should have locked them in a cage and let them duke it out, like Thunder Dome! "Two men enter, one man leaves!"
06-14-2014, 07:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
prior to 117, nobody could sit International short call for 23 hours, then fly 16, or even more than one. Remember Whithlow? You had to be able to look back 24 hours and find 8 hrs. free of duty for rest, short call was not considered "Rest" so as you sat longer, your availability to fly became shorter.
06-14-2014, 08:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Looks like a lot of July A schedules are out via the backdoor….
06-14-2014, 08:14 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,596
There are a few 'good' things in FAR117, no doubt, but much of it seems bass-akwards.
First off, prior to 117, nobody could sit International short call for 23 hours, then fly 16, or even more than one. Remember Whithlow? You had to be able to look back 24 hours and find 8 hrs. free of duty for rest, short call was not considered "Rest" so as you sat longer, your availability to fly became shorter.
I do like that they eliminated -any- 24hr. short calls though, that was just stupid.
Second, the "Problem" they were trying to fix, was a Domestic flying (mostly RJ) problem, r.e. the Buffalo crash.
They "fixed it" by allowing 2 pilots to fly 9 hours, instead of 8.
Brilliant.
I do like that they made the minimum layover 10 hours though, if I were King, that would have been an FAR about 40 years ago, along with a max number of legs flown per day, and my number would have been 5 legs, not 6, shortened by back side of the clock flying. And yes, when I was flying both the MD88 and the 75/767 domestic, there were a few trips where, due to wx, we got in very late for our 9hr. layover. I called crew scheds and told them we would NOT be making our 0600 pushback, due to fatigue. I never got any blowback about it from the CPO.
But what about the CDO bullet we just dodged?
That's still legal??
YGTBSM.
About the whole CEO intimidation thing, yes, I fully believe SF, that was Mo'Ron's way of dealing with...everyone. If you spoke out, on the DALPA forum or via letters, he would "Call you in" to talk about it, hoping to intimidate you, and everyone you talked to afterwards.
I remember the two Charlies too, Tutt and Sargent. Someone should have locked them in a cage and let them duke it out, like Thunder Dome! "Two men enter, one man leaves!"
First off, prior to 117, nobody could sit International short call for 23 hours, then fly 16, or even more than one. Remember Whithlow? You had to be able to look back 24 hours and find 8 hrs. free of duty for rest, short call was not considered "Rest" so as you sat longer, your availability to fly became shorter.
I do like that they eliminated -any- 24hr. short calls though, that was just stupid.
Second, the "Problem" they were trying to fix, was a Domestic flying (mostly RJ) problem, r.e. the Buffalo crash.
They "fixed it" by allowing 2 pilots to fly 9 hours, instead of 8.
Brilliant.
I do like that they made the minimum layover 10 hours though, if I were King, that would have been an FAR about 40 years ago, along with a max number of legs flown per day, and my number would have been 5 legs, not 6, shortened by back side of the clock flying. And yes, when I was flying both the MD88 and the 75/767 domestic, there were a few trips where, due to wx, we got in very late for our 9hr. layover. I called crew scheds and told them we would NOT be making our 0600 pushback, due to fatigue. I never got any blowback about it from the CPO.
But what about the CDO bullet we just dodged?
That's still legal??
YGTBSM.
About the whole CEO intimidation thing, yes, I fully believe SF, that was Mo'Ron's way of dealing with...everyone. If you spoke out, on the DALPA forum or via letters, he would "Call you in" to talk about it, hoping to intimidate you, and everyone you talked to afterwards.
I remember the two Charlies too, Tutt and Sargent. Someone should have locked them in a cage and let them duke it out, like Thunder Dome! "Two men enter, one man leaves!"
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