Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-13-2014, 08:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Do I care what they think of us? No I don't. Results are all that matter. It is business. And we have out performed them for years. I think 17% would be awesome, but it matters not to me whether or not they LIKE it.
Now you have the same question to answer as PD. Whose contract, in it's entirety, would you rather have than ours?
USAPA has done nothing to raise any bar. Nothing. Had it not been for Dougie Parker's world domination aspirations, they would still be languishing in pathetic mediocrity. The funny thing is that they did it all to themselves. Dougie sat back and watched them shoot inside the circle. And do you seriously believe that APA would have gotten that contract had it not been for ours? C'mon man, most of the time you seem fairly rational and business like, but you are giving them waaaaaaay too much credit. They sat back with arms folded and hoped for a miracle for a long time... and it cost them in career earnings... a LOT. And as far as the DB plan.. no thanks. not again... ever.
Now you have the same question to answer as PD. Whose contract, in it's entirety, would you rather have than ours?
USAPA has done nothing to raise any bar. Nothing. Had it not been for Dougie Parker's world domination aspirations, they would still be languishing in pathetic mediocrity. The funny thing is that they did it all to themselves. Dougie sat back and watched them shoot inside the circle. And do you seriously believe that APA would have gotten that contract had it not been for ours? C'mon man, most of the time you seem fairly rational and business like, but you are giving them waaaaaaay too much credit. They sat back with arms folded and hoped for a miracle for a long time... and it cost them in career earnings... a LOT. And as far as the DB plan.. no thanks. not again... ever.
APA. Did they find themselves in a fortunate situation. Yes. Did they leverage it. Yes.
Was it all attributed to our contract. No.
I think other contracts had just as much or more to do with their final product.
Simple illustrative point. fNWA have frozen pensions. fDAL do not.
APA preserved a much better portion of their retirement and has better contributions going forward.
I'm not lobbying for a DB plan again either. ALPA screwed that one up by not putting it in our own names in C2K. It was effectively gone then.
Pattern bargain works by examining all the competing contracts out there and patterning above the sections you desire to target. Asking if you'd take their contract as a whole is not an intellectually sound rebuttal nor argument.
Yes. They are BETTER than us in certain areas of their contract.
We should recognize that, accept the fact, plan to pattern bargain above to our benefit.
It's not a difficult concept.
06-13-2014, 08:53 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
06-13-2014, 09:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
16.5% pay raise on 1/16.
3.5% each year after if needed.
Why if needed? They have negotiated a composite of Delta and UAL pay. They will be paid the middle of the three carriers.
So, you said yourself sailing that you thought it could be a three year negotiation. If so, they automatically top our a330 and 764 pilots by 40 an hour.
Pretty simple. They banded their group four aircraft to the 777.
06-13-2014, 09:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
I've learned a lot about commercial and civilian aircraft identification on this thread, and I thank the experts. I'm still working on improving my ID skills and embarrassed to admit that although I've seen this aircraft plenty of times while taxiing by them on various airfields, I don't know what their official designation is. In this pic you can make one out in the background...what, prey tell is this aircraft?
06-13-2014, 09:14 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I agree we probably won't see that in an official opener or TA. However I'm sure the company will float it, and it could be considered by some. We were even told in the runup to C2012 that the company tried to get 86 (or something like that) seat "RJ's" but we said no. But it was put out there anyway. To me that kind of negotiating tactic should be smacked down immediately and not even considered a part of negotiations. It would be like us opening for $1000/hr. They would laugh and line item veto it without a second thought. I hope we do the same.
06-13-2014, 09:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 404
You are correct. USAPA did not one thing. They continue to this day filling lawsuits trying to stop their merger integration.
APA. Did they find themselves in a fortunate situation. Yes. Did they leverage it. Yes.
Was it all attributed to our contract. No.
I think other contracts had just as much or more to do with their final product.
Simple illustrative point. fNWA have frozen pensions. fDAL do not.
APA preserved a much better portion of their retirement and has better contributions going forward.
I'm not lobbying for a DB plan again either. ALPA screwed that one up by not putting it in our own names in C2K. It was effectively gone then.
Pattern bargain works by examining all the competing contracts out there and patterning above the sections you desire to target. Asking if you'd take their contract as a whole is not an intellectually sound rebuttal nor argument.
Yes. They are BETTER than us in certain areas of their contract.
We should recognize that, accept the fact, plan to pattern bargain above to our benefit.
It's not a difficult concept.
APA. Did they find themselves in a fortunate situation. Yes. Did they leverage it. Yes.
Was it all attributed to our contract. No.
I think other contracts had just as much or more to do with their final product.
Simple illustrative point. fNWA have frozen pensions. fDAL do not.
APA preserved a much better portion of their retirement and has better contributions going forward.
I'm not lobbying for a DB plan again either. ALPA screwed that one up by not putting it in our own names in C2K. It was effectively gone then.
Pattern bargain works by examining all the competing contracts out there and patterning above the sections you desire to target. Asking if you'd take their contract as a whole is not an intellectually sound rebuttal nor argument.
Yes. They are BETTER than us in certain areas of their contract.
We should recognize that, accept the fact, plan to pattern bargain above to our benefit.
It's not a difficult concept.
To say that they added nothing is fairly accurate, I suppose. Then again, if you look at the track records since BK givebacks, we have also given back more--via trade offs in our contract to secure more money. They certainly did not advance any until now, but also did not add givebacks until the MOU.
Everyone sees $$$ differently. Some see physical money, others see seat advancement, others see premium pay, some of our pilots have sugar mamas and want only QOL, when I ran for rep I had one guy lecture me for an hour that all he wanted was maximum hotel points on on our layovers.
I can tell you from an insiders point of view that at least one USAir east pilot will be very sad to see their scheduling system go away, which outpaces ours in flexibility by far.
I was a no voter on c2012 due to the value of the tradeoffs for the gains we received--especially small jet flying. I wonder how quickly we would have come to agreement without the trade offs in that agreement. Somehow, I think not so fast. So it will be with 2015.
Everyone has weak points in their contract, and ours is scope. Our pilots have voted time and time again to trade $$$ for productivity. That is our collective "value"
For USAir East pilots, it had been just the opposite, trading scope for $$$.
UAL and AMR have their weak parts as well and their strengths. T values money, I don't so much. I am the worlds single worst investor, he apparently does pretty well.
To say that we have done well is subjective. We have made trade-offs and have generally sacrifices our work rules and scope for $$$ others have stood more firm and have not voluntarily given as much and suffered the $$$ hit.
Here are the AMR/AAA/AWA rates
MOU Pay Rates.pdf
06-13-2014, 09:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 950
06-13-2014, 09:55 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Actually, I think the latest and greatest from USAPA is that they are trying to accelerate the SLI so that it is 1 v. 1 instead of 1 v. 1 v. 1, although I stopped paying attention a while back.
To say that they added nothing is fairly accurate, I suppose. Then again, if you look at the track records since BK givebacks, we have also given back more--via trade offs in our contract to secure more money. They certainly did not advance any until now, but also did not add givebacks until the MOU.
Everyone sees $$$ differently. Some see physical money, others see seat advancement, others see premium pay, some of our pilots have sugar mamas and want only QOL, when I ran for rep I had one guy lecture me for an hour that all he wanted was maximum hotel points on on our layovers.
I can tell you from an insiders point of view that at least one USAir east pilot will be very sad to see their scheduling system go away, which outpaces ours in flexibility by far.
I was a no voter on c2012 due to the value of the tradeoffs for the gains we received--especially small jet flying. I wonder how quickly we would have come to agreement without the trade offs in that agreement. Somehow, I think not so fast. So it will be with 2015.
Everyone has weak points in their contract, and ours is scope. Our pilots have voted time and time again to trade $$$ for productivity. That is our collective "value"
For USAir East pilots, it had been just the opposite, trading scope for $$$.
UAL and AMR have their weak parts as well and their strengths. T values money, I don't so much. I am the worlds single worst investor, he apparently does pretty well.
To say that we have done well is subjective. We have made trade-offs and have generally sacrifices our work rules and scope for $$$ others have stood more firm and have not voluntarily given as much and suffered the $$$ hit.
Here are the AMR/AAA/AWA rates
Attachment 1422
To say that they added nothing is fairly accurate, I suppose. Then again, if you look at the track records since BK givebacks, we have also given back more--via trade offs in our contract to secure more money. They certainly did not advance any until now, but also did not add givebacks until the MOU.
Everyone sees $$$ differently. Some see physical money, others see seat advancement, others see premium pay, some of our pilots have sugar mamas and want only QOL, when I ran for rep I had one guy lecture me for an hour that all he wanted was maximum hotel points on on our layovers.
I can tell you from an insiders point of view that at least one USAir east pilot will be very sad to see their scheduling system go away, which outpaces ours in flexibility by far.
I was a no voter on c2012 due to the value of the tradeoffs for the gains we received--especially small jet flying. I wonder how quickly we would have come to agreement without the trade offs in that agreement. Somehow, I think not so fast. So it will be with 2015.
Everyone has weak points in their contract, and ours is scope. Our pilots have voted time and time again to trade $$$ for productivity. That is our collective "value"
For USAir East pilots, it had been just the opposite, trading scope for $$$.
UAL and AMR have their weak parts as well and their strengths. T values money, I don't so much. I am the worlds single worst investor, he apparently does pretty well.
To say that we have done well is subjective. We have made trade-offs and have generally sacrifices our work rules and scope for $$$ others have stood more firm and have not voluntarily given as much and suffered the $$$ hit.
Here are the AMR/AAA/AWA rates
Attachment 1422
06-13-2014, 10:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
Posts: 1,410
I've learned a lot about commercial and civilian aircraft identification on this thread, and I thank the experts. I'm still working on improving my ID skills and embarrassed to admit that although I've seen this aircraft plenty of times while taxiing by them on various airfields, I don't know what their official designation is. In this pic you can make one out in the background...what, prey tell is this aircraft?
06-13-2014, 10:07 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Unknown
Posts: 38
Manager, I think you need to check that 16.5 on 1/16 at AA. That is an estimated pay increase, it could be a lot less.
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