Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-13-2014, 07:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
The only real competitor we have that was officially merged back then was United. But, they didn't have their seniority list, they were operating separately, and their management was playing one side against the other.
Your data is going to be in flux for a while until everything gets sorted out.
Why not compare the other airlines of 2012 to the Delta and Northwest data from 2008? It's the same thing.
Most current? Ok. But, until you prove otherwise, it still seems to be horribly obsolete.
As I pointed out before, IMO, if Delta brought that 2012 data to the NMB to use against us in negotiations, DALPA would tear it apart.
06-13-2014, 07:37 AM
Wind the clock beoch
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 437
Senior management is getting filthy rich off of our concessions. RA got a 42% increase to his pay package last year alone. Do you think he worried that it was "too much."
Management is also GIVING AWAY (not "returning" as they like to call it) BILLIONS of $ to stockholders in the form of buybacks and dividends.
We are WAY overdue for the return on our "investment."
06-13-2014, 07:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Because C2K pay rates plus 3% does not restore C2K buying power. Vacation and training pay above C2K, $4K contribution to our HRA, etc. help, but I'd like to know how much.
To the extent that this will be a negotiation, our reps will have to convince the Company, the NMB, or both, of the validity of our position to succeed, those numbers will certainly have to be recognized and justified.
Knowing them is the first step.
Please do not put words into my mouth. At no time did I state that this was "too much." At the same time, do you not think that RA knows exactly what his total compensation increase was?
Agreed. Quit being so jumpy every time someone tries to put some serious thought into measuring that return and determining how we might best achieve it.
To the extent that this will be a negotiation, our reps will have to convince the Company, the NMB, or both, of the validity of our position to succeed, those numbers will certainly have to be recognized and justified.
Knowing them is the first step.
Agreed. Quit being so jumpy every time someone tries to put some serious thought into measuring that return and determining how we might best achieve it.
06-13-2014, 07:55 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I'll tell you this much. I am not willing to spend on red cent for any kind of early out program. We have seen enough of THAT crap to know that they don't work.
06-13-2014, 08:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Either 3% of Shadow Stats previous years adjusted inflationary number paid the following year.
06-13-2014, 08:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
06-13-2014, 08:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Sailing
What does the final product C2015 end up being in your book?
I will go first.
When management is returning billions to the shareholders and making record profits, making any concessions is insane.
Date of signing May 2004 Delta hourly rates plus 3%. 5% per year after that.
3 year duration.
Per diem $2.95/$3.95 plus .10 per year
44 days of vacation UAL match
Air tight Improved JV language with rapid and severe penalties.
$4000 annual company contribution to medical savings account.
4:30 vacation day and training day.
Restoration of C2012 profit sharing reduction.
I admit this is not "historic" but this is the very minimum.
What does the final product C2015 end up being in your book?
I will go first.
When management is returning billions to the shareholders and making record profits, making any concessions is insane.
Date of signing May 2004 Delta hourly rates plus 3%. 5% per year after that.
3 year duration.
Per diem $2.95/$3.95 plus .10 per year
44 days of vacation UAL match
Air tight Improved JV language with rapid and severe penalties.
$4000 annual company contribution to medical savings account.
4:30 vacation day and training day.
Restoration of C2012 profit sharing reduction.
I admit this is not "historic" but this is the very minimum.
We currently lag.
We need 17%.
American/USAirways now gets 16% and in light of pattern bargaining and it's definition, we need 17% or we will be seen as the prison bitcche$ that actually like to give it up with out a fight.
06-13-2014, 08:11 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
A little melodramatic, dontcha think? Besides, I couldn't care less what APA or UALPA think of us... do you? Really?
06-13-2014, 08:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
06-13-2014, 08:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Block hours per pilot isn't a measure of efficiency in this business...
The widgets we make are called ASMs
The cost to make the widgets is CASM
Delta's CASM is indeed higher than Southwest's CASM.
But to effectively measure pilot productivity we need to measure the pilot portion of CASM.
Guess what we are still more efficient as Southwest when it comes to the pilot portion of production.
Yes, that's right, the pilot portion of CASM at Delta is lower than the pilot portion of CASM at Southwest.
Why is this?
Let's look at "digging"
The workers at company A produce 25 billable digging hours per week.
The workers at company B produce 20 billable digging hours per week.
Clearly the workers at company A are more efficient, right?
If you measure billable digging hours you'd be right.
What if I told you the workers at company A use a shovel and the workers at company B use a Caterpillar D9.
Now who is more efficient?
Does it matter if Company B pays their D9 drivers more than the shovel wielders at company A?
So yes, using sailings "metric" of block hours, we are less productive than the others. But using the metric based on the currency the company accountants use - ASM - we are not. And that's the one that matters...
Cheers
George
Extra credit homework for sailing:
What is the pilot portion of CASM at Delta, what is it at WN?
How many ASMs are produced per pilot block hour at Delta, how many at WN?
The widgets we make are called ASMs
The cost to make the widgets is CASM
Delta's CASM is indeed higher than Southwest's CASM.
But to effectively measure pilot productivity we need to measure the pilot portion of CASM.
Guess what we are still more efficient as Southwest when it comes to the pilot portion of production.
Yes, that's right, the pilot portion of CASM at Delta is lower than the pilot portion of CASM at Southwest.
Why is this?
Let's look at "digging"
The workers at company A produce 25 billable digging hours per week.
The workers at company B produce 20 billable digging hours per week.
Clearly the workers at company A are more efficient, right?
If you measure billable digging hours you'd be right.
What if I told you the workers at company A use a shovel and the workers at company B use a Caterpillar D9.
Now who is more efficient?
Does it matter if Company B pays their D9 drivers more than the shovel wielders at company A?
So yes, using sailings "metric" of block hours, we are less productive than the others. But using the metric based on the currency the company accountants use - ASM - we are not. And that's the one that matters...
Cheers
George
Extra credit homework for sailing:
What is the pilot portion of CASM at Delta, what is it at WN?
How many ASMs are produced per pilot block hour at Delta, how many at WN?
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