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Old 06-02-2014, 11:50 AM
  #159251  
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Originally Posted by TheManager
We are screening pilots with less and less experience than the 90 and 2000 hires. Still think it is a bad idea?
Its not a "bad" idea, its just a worthless idea. The scenario you describe is a theoretical shortcut to attempt to hire those with basic flying instincts, which most pilots have anyway, including those that don't do well flying a new aircraft for the first time ever. Yet the instant the gouge gets out there, everyone knows it, sees it coming and practices it. Airlines need to incorporate that into their training programs, heavens forbid if it adds a couple sim periods in these days of cost cutting by any means necessary.

DL has had exceptional success with non sim interviews. If sim interviews are really a clear and significant advantage, it should be easy to prove it. Yet airlines at every level have sim interviews or not, with no discernible difference.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:56 AM
  #159252  
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Originally Posted by FlyZ
Here's the top reason they list for needing the flow up program:

EtD Commitment is expected to bolster Endeavor’s ability to attract career-minded pilots while positioning the airline for growth.

Delta wants to make sure Endeavor has the capability to grow. Are you guys sure it isn't worth some negotiating capital to continue shrinking the number of large RJs?

Face it, they still love the 70-76-90 seaters and will do whatever it takes to breathe life into the struggling regional model. I see this as a very creative way of helping ensure Endeavor is able to retain the staffing required to continue flying routes that Delta pilots should be flying.
Exactly correct. Management worked long and hard to set up the current outsourcing regime the way they like it, and they're not going to let it go without a fight, economics be damned. They already tried swapping out 50 seaters for a smaller number of 76 seaters (and 717s). That failed to help much with staffing but it DID give them the carrot they needed to entice the Endeavor pilots into voting in their "cost reset."

Now they just need to figure out how to staff their cost reset regional. This new flow is round 1. It won't staff Endeavor enough to grow it, but it might buy them some time. Round 2 will be lobbying Congress for further exemptions to the 1500 hour rule under some pie-in-the-sky promise of superior extra training at 9E & assurances of super-selective DL hiring. Round 3 is going to be sponsoring flight training scholarships in exchange for 5-8 yrs of indentured servitude at 9E. Round 4 is going to be asking DALPA for scope relief on next-Gen 90 seaters once they're sufficiently proven, in exchange for retiring a larger number of CRJ-700s (yet another cost reset opportunity!). It will be sold as a further restriction of DCI when it's really just yet another lifeline keeping it afloat.

When I hear guys like tsquare* say they're not willing to spend one red cent on recapturing scope, what I really hear (and what I think management really hears) is that they're also not willing to give up one red cent of negotiating capital that comes from preserving the status quo. If throwing management another lifeline to save their outsourcing scheme can net another 3833, I'm doubtful that tsquare et al is willing to pass over an easy 3833 to ensure outsourcing dies a natural death.

If we want to see the outsourcing scheme die, it's not going to be enough to just wait for economics to take their natural course - management will keep it on life support by any means necessary, because that's the way this generation of management was raised. If we want to see it die, we're going to have to kill it. We'll need a plan, and we'll need to act decisively while the economic factors are in our favor.

*Not picking on you tsquare, it's been a common sentiment on here recently.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:58 AM
  #159253  
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Originally Posted by Lone Palm
The chess game for new hires is here.
The board was taken out of the box and unfolded, but no real moves have taken place. Yet.

They need significant pay raises and work rule improvements as well as some "outside the box" things like maybe tuition reimbursement (only a stop gap that will eventually increase the cost of learning to fly as all subsidies eventually do), hotels for all training, signing bonuses, retention bonuses, perhaps training contracts although that is a double edged sword that often hurts their efforts more in the long run.

And all this still does nothing to fix the very core issue: a lack of student pilots who will eventually become 1500 hour pilots so they can go to a regional then a major. DL had such an infrastructure once and it was actually doing a pretty good job. But, true to B-school form, they bought high and sold low, losing control in the process.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:59 AM
  #159254  
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

I do not expect this flow to deliver the operational reliability Richard Anderson desires across the bottom 40% of Delta's network. It is a quick band aid which creates more problems in the cockpits of Endeavor airlines. One can only imagine the entitled new hire with the grumpy crusty Captain who failed his interview. It is not an idea mentoring environment and maybe not even safe (as the two semi recent deadly accidents which hit Delta's books thanks to outsourcing proved).
+1 good post. See I don't always give you a hard time.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:02 PM
  #159255  
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New intraday 52 week high for DAL and LUV today. ALK up pretty big too.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:10 PM
  #159256  
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Originally Posted by JungleBus
Exactly correct. Management worked long and hard to set up the current outsourcing regime the way they like it, and they're not going to let it go without a fight, economics be damned. They already tried swapping out 50 seaters for a smaller number of 76 seaters (and 717s). That failed to help much with staffing but it DID give them the carrot they needed to entice the Endeavor pilots into voting in their "cost reset."

Now they just need to figure out how to staff their cost reset regional. This new flow is round 1. It won't staff Endeavor enough to grow it, but it might buy them some time. Round 2 will be lobbying Congress for further exemptions to the 1500 hour rule under some pie-in-the-sky promise of superior extra training at 9E & assurances of super-selective DL hiring. Round 3 is going to be sponsoring flight training scholarships in exchange for 5-8 yrs of indentured servitude at 9E. Round 4 is going to be asking DALPA for scope relief on next-Gen 90 seaters once they're sufficiently proven, in exchange for retiring a larger number of CRJ-700s (yet another cost reset opportunity!). It will be sold as a further restriction of DCI when it's really just yet another lifeline keeping it afloat.

When I hear guys like tsquare* say they're not willing to spend one red cent on recapturing scope, what I really hear (and what I think management really hears) is that they're also not willing to give up one red cent of negotiating capital that comes from preserving the status quo. If throwing management another lifeline to save their outsourcing scheme can net another 3833, I'm doubtful that tsquare et al is willing to pass over an easy 3833 to ensure outsourcing dies a natural death.

If we want to see the outsourcing scheme die, it's not going to be enough to just wait for economics to take their natural course - management will keep it on life support by any means necessary, because that's the way this generation of management was raised. If we want to see it die, we're going to have to kill it. We'll need a plan, and we'll need to act decisively while the economic factors are in our favor.

*Not picking on you tsquare, it's been a common sentiment on here recently.
Agree. It is my opinion that keeping the Endeavor experiment going is paramount to airline managements total reset for outsourced flying industry wide. Delta has established a pricing structure with it's other outsourced regionals that relies on lowest cost plus some percentage, not unlike interest rates (prime plus x).

ALPA/DALPA should fight ANY provisions, schemes, strategies, master plan etc that breathes new life into outsourcing. This should be taken as seriously as Norwegian Airlines attack on our industry from a pilots perspective. And yet what do we have, a blind eye and deaf ears. All this while in another room, ALPA works with management and the FAA to facilitate yet another blow to raising the bar with some abbreviated training program geared at getting around the 1500 rule.

Two failed experiments for the price of one (50 seat RJ's bought en mass which ALPA is helping cure and "constructive engagement" that is so lopsided the counter balance got flung off years ago.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:22 PM
  #159257  
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Perhaps the first thing I've read from the Endeavor MEC that I completely agree with.



cid:[email protected]

Endeavor Air and Delta Air Lines Announce “EtD” Program for New-Hires

Today, Delta Air Lines and Endeavor Air announced a program they hope will address Endeavor’s inability to attract new pilots. That program is called “Endeavor to Delta” or “EtD,” and it amounts (with a few conditions) to a flow-through to Delta for new-hires only. The MEC recognizes how crucial new-hire pilots are to the future of this airline, and we have insisted for many months that some fundamental problems need to be fixed in order to attract applicants. However, we are angered and disappointed that Delta and Endeavor have chosen to seek solutions to their own difficulties without addressing the concerns of our current pilots.

This announcement comes after several months of the company not being able to fill its new-hire classes. The staffing shortage caused by the lack of hiring has caused Endeavor to turn away flying and park aircraft, and this has affected Delta’s business plan for our carrier. The proposed solution is to offer what Delta and Endeavor perceive prospective new-hires want most, a guaranteed job at Delta, while ignoring the appeals of current Endeavor pilots to increase the SSP success rate, bring our pay in line with the industry average, establish benefits commensurate with our status as a wholly-owned subsidiary, and publish the “real” fleet plan so that our own pilots and prospective new-hires alike can evaluate their options.

Over the course of several days of negotiations with Endeavor Air and Delta management last month, the MEC stressed the need for a more comprehensive solution which would demonstrate a level of commitment to current Endeavor pilots on par with what the companies were prepared to give new-hires. What was offered did not satisfy the MEC that such parity would ever exist, and the MEC could not support a program that it believed would be unsuccessful and divisive while failing to address our pilots’ primary concerns. Management has elected to proceed with the EtD program regardless, suggesting that it is in the best interest of all involved.

For current pilots, the EtD documents advertise Delta’s intent to exceed the monthly SSP hiring commitment and accelerate interviews. The MEC welcomes additional Delta jobs for Endeavor pilots, but, based on reasonable estimates, the increased hiring for the next several years will likely result in fewer than two additional pilots moving to Delta under the SSP each month. Our primary concern with the SSP, however, continues to be our low interview success rate – highlighted by the rejection of a significant number of candidates whose professional records are beyond reproach. Without an improved success rate in the SSP interview, accelerated interviews could simply lead to more “No’s” for more of our pilots, clearing the way for faster progress to Delta through the EtD program – making Endeavor and the EtD more attractive to new-hires at the expense of our current pilots. While the EtD serves the current business interests of Delta and Endeavor, it is arguable that SSP hiring no longer does, and turning us down at Delta as quickly as possible may improve staffing and hiring at our company. The conflict of interests being set up between current pilots and prospective applicants is alarming.

It’s also worth noting that this “commitment,” to both exceed the SSP and continue the EtD, can be canceled by Delta or Endeavor at any time and comes with no guarantees, such as a fleet plan, that would ensure a future for this airline beyond the Bridge Agreement’s eighty-one aircraft. What the EtD actually amounts to is a half measure with an escape clause. Delta will test the waters with this program, and, if it doesn’t solve Endeavor’s problems, Delta can choose either to enrich the offer again or to pull the plug. It is that type of uncertainty that has kept pilots away from Endeavor since our emergence from bankruptcy and may continue to do so. How would an EtD pilot’s projected five-year path to Delta be impacted if the EtD were unsuccessful in attracting the hundreds of pilots annually that will be necessary to sustain this airline and instead Endeavor actually continued to shrink?

Further, with regard to the hundreds of new-hires needed to backfill attrition and allow for growth, how does Endeavor Air expect to attract, interview, select, hire, and train a sufficient number of pilots who all meet Delta’s hiring standard? The answer is in the phrase “allowing for differences in experience,” which can be found anywhere the Delta standard is mentioned in EtD documents. Effectively, the bar will be lowered for new-hires, while SSP applicants receive no such consideration for their experience, performance, or faithful service to the brand. Delta and Endeavor believe that they can learn something about a stranger in a two-day interview process that none of us can demonstrate without interviewing, despite our many years as loyal employees and safe pilots. We will monitor closely whether Endeavor’s overall new-hire acceptance rate exceeds the success rate of SSP applicants. Clearly, if similar standards are used, it should not.

By stating “the traits that Delta highly values – job knowledge levels, cognitive abilities, critical thinking skills and leadership – will not be compromised in the EtD,” and “Delta also will benefit from the future employment of pilots who have been selected and trained to our high standards, have demonstrated performance and experience at Endeavor, and have a clear understanding of the Delta brand,” Delta implies that it does not currently benefit from those qualities among our pilots and that hiring us without interview might compromise those values. The MEC asserts, however, that each of our pilots has established proficiency, professionalism, and dedication to the Delta brand many times over in the years that we have all worked here, and Delta has full access to our employment records to validate that history. It is wrong that new-hires should get what Delta itself calls a “‘ticket’ to Delta” while we continue to be offered a coin toss.

In bankruptcy, we were called upon to sacrifice our pay, retirement, and benefits to save this airline and the jobs of all its employees, and we did what was necessary. For the past year and a half, we’ve been asked to deliver strong operational performance despite the turmoil of the reorganization and realignment of our company, and we have. Now we’re being asked to accept that new-hire pilots, who gave nothing to rescue this company from financial ruin and who have not played a part in its revitalization, are more valuable and reliable to the airline and the brand than we are. We do not agree; this is a betrayal of our trust and discounts our role in setting Endeavor on the road to success.

By disregarding our issues and focusing solely on their own needs, management and ownership have hurt our chances to develop a healthy corporate culture, either of our own or in Delta’s image. Our low success rate in SSP interviews coupled with the presence of EtD pilots in our midst will spark discord and conflict at a time when pilot morale is already critically low. Although touted to provide “career stability” and “job security for all Endeavor employees,” this program threatens to disenfranchise our current pilots while setting up new-hires as outcasts. Our problem would not be with the new pilots themselves but rather with the biased treatment they would receive from Delta. Those new-hire pilots, apart from their commitment from Delta and above-average first year pay, would have only New York basing, below-average wages, and an uncertain fleet plan to face for at least the next five years – just like the rest of us. In that light, it’s hard to envision EtD being a good deal for anyone. Likewise, management has seen fit to offer an SSP-style interview to recently-hired pilots, and, while our problem is not with our newest brethren, by conferring our hard-won benefit in a manner not contemplated in the Bridge Agreement, management has cheapened our reward and again marginalized our sacrifice.

The EtD program has been carefully constructed to avoid conflict with our JCBA; as a result, ALPA’s legal experts advise us that we cannot oppose it through the grievance process. However, the MEC implores Delta and Endeavor management to address the broader issues, the concerns of current Endeavor pilots, before irreparable harm is done. To ensure our message is heard by management, the traveling public, and prospective pilot applicants, the MEC is planning an informational campaign. First, to address the apprehensions of many pilots who wish to express themselves to management but who fear retribution, the MEC will establish a program to compile, anonymize, and convey to management the stories of our pilots – think of it like ASAP for pilot personal concerns. Next, faced with the prospect that more than half of us may never be offered the opportunity to progress to Delta, the MEC plans to follow up its successful interview prep series with additional seminars and information to ensure that our pilots can make wise career decisions, armed with the necessary skills and tools for whatever the right next step may be. Additionally, we are contemplating a range of options from media outlets and informational picketing designed to reach our target audience, to an online and physical presence at job fairs to publicize to prospective applicants the realities of life as an Endeavor Air pilot. Your representatives welcome your feedback as to which types of events you would most like to see and support.

The MEC’s goal is to secure a comprehensive package that addresses the needs of the company, its pilots, and prospective new-hires – a program that truly promises us all a future. This is the only solution that fairly recognizes our contributions and the only path that can achieve the buy-in and support of the MEC and this pilot group. Our pilots will know when it is time to tell our friends and associates throughout the industry that something positive is happening here, and that will truly signal the beginning of the end of Endeavor Air’s troubles. Unfortunately, based on the company’s current approach, things may get worse before they get better. In the meantime, we encourage each pilot to participate in our informational events as they are announced. If we can demonstrate our solidarity, we are confident we will succeed.

In Unity,

The Endeavor Air MEC
Air Line Pilots Association, International
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:32 PM
  #159258  
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Bar that letter from the MEC is scary. Why....because it sounds like the MEC has no idea why Delta is doing this.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:57 PM
  #159259  
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Originally Posted by tsquare
I didn't mean to come across as arrogant. I just mean that I see no reason to buy back what will eventually come our way anyway. The RJ experiment is over... especially here at DAL. Yes they are slightly bigger, but look at UAL where they still have a million of the 50 seaters. I think the battle underlying all of this is control of those larger airframes as the 50s become more and more economically unfeasible. Hmmmmm where have I heard that line of logic before?

I'm a line dog. I have no political connections whatsoever.


I can't bold the part I want to on an IPad but with regard to the RJ experiment being over...I agree that the tides have shifted in our favor and for the "foreseeable future" things look good, but I remember hearing back in 2002-2006 that the legacy model was dead. If you believed the reporters and experts, you would never see another meal served on an airplane...ever again. This industry has always been cyclical, and will always be cyclical, even more so going forward now with increased competition from global carriers.

There will come a time in 3, 5, or 10 years that the industry hits the skids again and management will look to down gauge aircraft size again. It sure would be nice to lock up our scope language now, way before it is a concern, so that we can do it for as little money as possible.

To say, who cares about flow back? Are you serious? We are hiring like gang busters? Is short sighted to say the least.

Get the language now, before we need it! That's when it is the easiest to get.

E
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:46 PM
  #159260  
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Originally Posted by Mesabah
Bar that letter from the MEC is scary. Why....because it sounds like the MEC has no idea why Delta is doing this.
Perhaps even scarier than that. I'm not sure Delta management believes in it enough to have codified it anywhere.

Applicant: A promise to a Delta job! Where do I sign?
Management: Sign what?
Applicant: The Agreement
Management: What agreement?

This is even less binding than the "vault letter." How does one enforce a press release?

Expect more of:

Delta passengers upset because pilot doesn't show
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