Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-10-2009, 12:48 PM
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You do understand that if we had "perfect" scope, the airline industry would still furlough in times of economic necessity.
If we had "perfect" scope, those would be Delta pilot furloughs.
If we had "perfect" scope, many of those Delta pilots would be flying in the FO seat at regional FO wages.
As it is, we currently have no Delta pilot furloughs. Every other legacy does.
If we had "perfect" scope, those would be Delta pilot furloughs.
If we had "perfect" scope, many of those Delta pilots would be flying in the FO seat at regional FO wages.
As it is, we currently have no Delta pilot furloughs. Every other legacy does.
As Bar has stated, flowbacks are not a scope fix. They only make it worse, so what does that say about pref hiring?
And how do you know if many of those Delta pilots would be flying the FO seat at a regional making FO wages. It seems to me most are unable to survive on the joke wages that regionals pay. Sure one might be able to do it when they are 25 or less, but then life happens. People get married, have kids, buy a house, and subsequently need to make more then $20,000 a year.
Plus, its so nice of ALPA to beat their victory drum by scoring us preferential interviews to fly for the very airlines that are taking the flying which results in our furloughs.
What about ALPA's conflicting interests? How do they protect and enhance Legacy Pilot's careers when they plan to do the same for the very Regional Pilots who fly 70+ seat jets on routes formerly served by NWA/DAL Mainline planes? It's a conflict of interest that ALPA contiues to dance around because it's the $$$ that National cares about, not the pilots. Don't derail the gravy train, that's whats on their minds. The poison just flows downstream to the Local levels, and we all suffer.
10-10-2009, 12:54 PM
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We all want that relationship Slow. It is important. What we xo not want is a relationship that does not get us improvements other than a seat at the table.
I am truly impressed with the work done with the relationship.
I am truly impressed with the work done with the relationship.
10-10-2009, 01:33 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Am I happy with where we're at? Heck no! But we've come a long way in a very short period of time. Just 4 years ago former DAL and NWA managements were trying to reject our contracts in bankruptcy. Today we're in position to weather this economic downturn better than any other legacy airline, and to restore our pay and conditions in 2012 should the company be solidly profitable.
10-10-2009, 01:41 PM
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The Compass flow continues to exist even if Compass is represented by their own MEC. If the Compass MEC were to remove the flow at some future negotiation, then Delta would be short 36 76 seat aircraft. For ACL, that plain language and intent is not in dispute. Management acknowledged that at the table.
jobs. So no, the vote on Friday did not cancel the flow, but it makes it more difficult to defend.What the NWA guys don't get is that Compass jobs were gone the second they decided that CPZ pilots were not getting seniority numbers yet. It just goes to prove my point that flows are empty promises.I hd hoped to recover Compass flying and we could have done it. But the decision was made not to pursue 76 seat restoration.It is done. It is the bankruptcy concession that just keeps on giving.
10-10-2009, 02:05 PM
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Our flow does not address a corporate transaction involving Compass, or successorship, does it? Compass could cease to exist, or their aiplanes transferred out from under them. By making them "independent" we no longer have a say in their business and will no longer defend their (ostensibly "our" jobs. So no, the vote on Friday did not cancel the flow, but it makes it more difficult to defend.What the NWA guys don't get is that Compass jobs were gone the second they decided that CPZ pilots were not getting seniority numbers yet. It just goes to prove my point that flows are empty promises.I hd hoped to recover Compass flying and we could have done it. But the decision was made not to pursue 76 seat restoration.It is done. It is the bankruptcy concession that just keeps on giving.
jobs. So no, the vote on Friday did not cancel the flow, but it makes it more difficult to defend.What the NWA guys don't get is that Compass jobs were gone the second they decided that CPZ pilots were not getting seniority numbers yet. It just goes to prove my point that flows are empty promises.I hd hoped to recover Compass flying and we could have done it. But the decision was made not to pursue 76 seat restoration.It is done. It is the bankruptcy concession that just keeps on giving.Unions do not give out seniority numbers. The seniority list is controlled and is a management function. NWA ALPA did not decide to not give compass seniority numbers. The company wanted a separate operation and used the power of bankrutpcy to force that operation on the pilots.
10-10-2009, 02:24 PM
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Posts: 2,539
Unions do not give out seniority numbers. The seniority list is controlled and is a management function. NWA ALPA did not decide to not give compass seniority numbers. The company wanted a separate operation and used the power of bankrutpcy to force that operation on the pilots.
10-10-2009, 02:29 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
If we had "perfect" scope then we wouldn't be having THIS discussion, would we?
And how do you know if many of those Delta pilots would be flying the FO seat at a regional making FO wages. It seems to me most are unable to survive on the joke wages that regionals pay. Sure one might be able to do it when they are 25 or less, but then life happens. People get married, have kids, buy a house, and subsequently need to make more then $20,000 a year.
And how do you know if many of those Delta pilots would be flying the FO seat at a regional making FO wages. It seems to me most are unable to survive on the joke wages that regionals pay. Sure one might be able to do it when they are 25 or less, but then life happens. People get married, have kids, buy a house, and subsequently need to make more then $20,000 a year.
If we had the "inclusive" "perfect" scope, the FO seat on an RJ would part of Delta mainline. Those RJ FO's would be making regional wages or there wouldn't be many (if any) of those jets on the property, reducing the total number of pilot jobs. You can't suspend economics when you "include."
10-10-2009, 02:58 PM
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 58
I'm confused. I thought you wanted all Delta flying to be done by Delta pilots?
If we had the "inclusive" "perfect" scope, the FO seat on an RJ would part of Delta mainline. Those RJ FO's would be making regional wages or there wouldn't be many (if any) of those jets on the property, reducing the total number of pilot jobs. You can't suspend economics when you "include."
If we had the "inclusive" "perfect" scope, the FO seat on an RJ would part of Delta mainline. Those RJ FO's would be making regional wages or there wouldn't be many (if any) of those jets on the property, reducing the total number of pilot jobs. You can't suspend economics when you "include."
What happens to your argument of economics when United starts outsourcing it's widebody flying?
10-10-2009, 03:20 PM
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Posts: 366
Isn't one of the arguments that we'd never be competitive flying RJs because of all the other airlines that have them? What would the economics be if there were no Connection, Express, Airlink, etc? No "whipsawing" or downward pressure by pilots willing to do it for less. What would the economics be then? Is a Delta pilot making $40k a year really worse off than a Delta guy making $0k a year?
What happens to your argument of economics when United starts outsourcing it's widebody flying?
What happens to your argument of economics when United starts outsourcing it's widebody flying?
..and is why I asked if a B scale had any legs at within DALPA at this point.
ACL65, I know you said you have pay scales for a 100 seater but does anyone really think they will stick?
10-10-2009, 03:50 PM
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 259
Plus, its so nice of ALPA to beat their victory drum by scoring us preferential interviews to fly for the very airlines that are taking the flying which results in our furloughs.
It's a conflict of interest that ALPA contiues to dance around because it's the $$$ that National cares about, not the pilots. Don't derail the gravy train, that's whats on their minds. The poison just flows downstream to the Local levels, and we all suffer.
It's a conflict of interest that ALPA contiues to dance around because it's the $$$ that National cares about, not the pilots. Don't derail the gravy train, that's whats on their minds. The poison just flows downstream to the Local levels, and we all suffer.
United pilots are the new lab experiment airline management is taking note of. The Aer Lingus, United arrangement will happen, ALPA will follow the money and turn their backs on United. They only have 5300 pilots now, down from 10,000 plus. DAL, NWA is now ALPA, replacing United pilots long standing majority.
ALPA will be an impotent bystander, collecting dues from United pilots, untill they sign up their new "brothers and sisters" from the new Aer Lingus alter ego pilots. Deja Vu all over again.
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