Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-19-2014, 03:56 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I'm just spitballing, but when they are able to raise the pilot shortage to a crisis, you can bet there will be some creative solutions proposed.
05-19-2014, 03:57 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Eventually it will be partially true. In 2017 they plan on converting 3 of the 58 ER's to domestic seating for transcons. Other then that no near term changes. The flying lost is from the 757 domestic side. At the moment however even that has slowed to a crawl as marketing finds uses for the airframes.
05-19-2014, 03:59 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Is this true the stand ups will be pay no credit? If so then what is to stop the company from making lots of stand ups and forcing guys too white slip to get over the trigger.
This is in excusable and a failure of epic proportions for an outmanned nc. What a sorry sorry situation. I am embarrassed for our nc
This is in excusable and a failure of epic proportions for an outmanned nc. What a sorry sorry situation. I am embarrassed for our nc
I really need to see the language of that to better judge whether or not to light my torch and sharpen my pitchfork. The augment thing and other stuff are non-starters for me, and the 5:15 thing is a huge gain. The CDO language is the only part that could be deal breaker for me. Particularly when it comes to the fullest extent they could use them and the implications of that.
My understanding was that there were additional protections on what could be designated CDO, but my memory may not be correct. I know for certain a CDO cannot be tacked into the middle of a trip. They will be stand alone.
Oh, and did anyone mention that we need to see the language yet?
05-19-2014, 04:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 737n/FO
Posts: 667
Here's some more food for thought on the CDO issue:
This is a VERY long document.
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf
I don't have time tonight to go all the way through it and pick everything out that applies to this discussion. But a quick skim through yielded the following, which I think directly addresses the safety issue with CDO's... given the FACT that most pilots flying CDO's do NOT get any significant amount of sleep during the day and count on the rest break during the CDO for most of their sleep for the 24 hour period, i.e. the pilot does NOT get anywhere near 8 hours of sleep in the 24 hour period and operates a flight toward the end of that period in a sleep deprived condition:
Amount of recent sleep.
If a person has had significantly less than 8 hours of sleep in the past 24 hours, he or she is more likely to be fatigued.
Time awake.
A person who has been continually awake for a long period of time since his or her last major sleep period is more likely to be fatigued.
Cumulative sleep debt.
For the average person, cumulative sleep debt is the difference between the amount of sleep a person has received over the past several days, and the amount of sleep he or she would have received with 8 hours of sleep a night.
Scientific research and experimentation have consistently demonstrated that adequate sleep sustains performance. For most people, 8 hours of sleep in each 24-hour period sustains performance indefinitely. Sleep opportunities during the WOCL are preferable because sleep that occurs during the WOCL provides the most recuperative value. Within limits, shortened periods of nighttime sleep may be nearly as beneficial as a consolidated sleep period when augmented by additional sleep periods, such as naps before evening departures, during flights with augmented flightcrews, and during layovers. Sleep should not be fragmented with interruptions. In addition, environmental
conditions, such as temperature, noise, and turbulence, impact how beneficial sleep is and how performance is restored. When a person has accumulated a sleep debt, recovery sleep is necessary to fully restore the person’s “sleep reservoir.” Recovery sleep should include at least one physiological night, that is, one sleep period during nighttime hours in the time zone in which the individual is acclimated. The average person requires in excess of 9 hours of sleep a night to recover from a sleep debt.
In the NPRM, the FAA stated that fatigue factors are “universal.” The FAA noted that sleep science, while still evolving, was clear in several important respects: most people need eight hours of sleep to function effectively, most people find it more difficult to sleep during the day than during the night, resulting in greater fatigue if working at night; the longer one has been awake and the longer one spends on task, the greater the likelihood of fatigue; and fatigue leads to an increased risk of making a mistake.
This is a VERY long document.
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf
I don't have time tonight to go all the way through it and pick everything out that applies to this discussion. But a quick skim through yielded the following, which I think directly addresses the safety issue with CDO's... given the FACT that most pilots flying CDO's do NOT get any significant amount of sleep during the day and count on the rest break during the CDO for most of their sleep for the 24 hour period, i.e. the pilot does NOT get anywhere near 8 hours of sleep in the 24 hour period and operates a flight toward the end of that period in a sleep deprived condition:
Amount of recent sleep.
If a person has had significantly less than 8 hours of sleep in the past 24 hours, he or she is more likely to be fatigued.
Time awake.
A person who has been continually awake for a long period of time since his or her last major sleep period is more likely to be fatigued.
Cumulative sleep debt.
For the average person, cumulative sleep debt is the difference between the amount of sleep a person has received over the past several days, and the amount of sleep he or she would have received with 8 hours of sleep a night.
Scientific research and experimentation have consistently demonstrated that adequate sleep sustains performance. For most people, 8 hours of sleep in each 24-hour period sustains performance indefinitely. Sleep opportunities during the WOCL are preferable because sleep that occurs during the WOCL provides the most recuperative value. Within limits, shortened periods of nighttime sleep may be nearly as beneficial as a consolidated sleep period when augmented by additional sleep periods, such as naps before evening departures, during flights with augmented flightcrews, and during layovers. Sleep should not be fragmented with interruptions. In addition, environmental
conditions, such as temperature, noise, and turbulence, impact how beneficial sleep is and how performance is restored. When a person has accumulated a sleep debt, recovery sleep is necessary to fully restore the person’s “sleep reservoir.” Recovery sleep should include at least one physiological night, that is, one sleep period during nighttime hours in the time zone in which the individual is acclimated. The average person requires in excess of 9 hours of sleep a night to recover from a sleep debt.
In the NPRM, the FAA stated that fatigue factors are “universal.” The FAA noted that sleep science, while still evolving, was clear in several important respects: most people need eight hours of sleep to function effectively, most people find it more difficult to sleep during the day than during the night, resulting in greater fatigue if working at night; the longer one has been awake and the longer one spends on task, the greater the likelihood of fatigue; and fatigue leads to an increased risk of making a mistake.
05-19-2014, 04:04 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Is this true the stand ups will be pay no credit? If so then what is to stop the company from making lots of stand ups and forcing guys too white slip to get over the trigger.
This is in excusable and a failure of epic proportions for an outmanned nc. What a sorry sorry situation. I am embarrassed for our nc
This is in excusable and a failure of epic proportions for an outmanned nc. What a sorry sorry situation. I am embarrassed for our nc
05-19-2014, 04:05 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
if left alone i would go to bed at 2am and wake up at 10 and eat twice a day. i am not left alone.
05-19-2014, 04:09 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
05-19-2014, 04:11 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 463
Speculative Councilor! Abort this TA. Let's stay where we are and wait for C2015. As some like to keep telling us, it's not far away. Let the membership weigh in. Let's please not do another rush job. Let the company hire. They chose to delay. Their failure to plan properly should not become this pilots groups emergency. I don't care how many times you try to characterize this TA as requiring more pilots and as a total win. It's just not. If there is not memrat it's a huge fail on the part of the "new" MEC leadership.
05-19-2014, 04:14 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Speculative Councilor! Abort this TA. Let's stay where we are and wait for C2015. As some like to keep telling us, it's not far away. Let the membership weigh in. Let's please not do another rush job. Let the company hire. They chose to delay. Their failure to plan properly should not become this pilots groups emergency. I don't care how many times you try to characterize this TA as requiring more pilots and as a total win. It's just not. If there is not memrat it's a huge fail on the part of the "new" MEC leadership.
05-19-2014, 04:15 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Well now we're getting into a different area - most Americans are sleep deprived most of their lives because they get less than 8 hours sleep in any 24 hour period. So, no matter what your sleep habits are (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 hours/night) you are sleep deprived if you don't get hours in every 24 hour period. I guess I'm in real trouble because, like most Americans, I almost never get 8 hours/night (no kids at home, quiet community, etc) so I guess I shouldn't ever fly again because I'm not properly rested. Actually, I'm weird because I am far better rested for my red-eyes because I keep a night owl schedule (bed between 2-4 AM, awake between 9-11 - average 6-7 hours/night) then I would on a "premium" day schedule - report @ 7 AM - fly my legs and sleep from 10 PM - 5 AM every night. While I don't fully understand what the agreement calls for as far as CDOs (only the committee and maybe MEC have seen it so far) I will rely on my reading of it to judge if it is a problem for me.
I don't care what your sleep habits are... the sleep science the FAA used in creating 117 says 8 hours is the standard. The typical pilot doing a CDO is getting FAR less than that and operating a flight at the end of a 24 hour period on maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep during that period. If your experience (and common sense) doesn't tell you that's UNSAFE, then I can't help you.
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